Aichi E13A "Jake" *Done*

flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Jan 31, 2021 0:23:12 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Jan 31, 2021 0:23:12 GMT History and equipment male it a asw3. Cost may change from testing advice

waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

Aichi E13A "Jake" *Done* Jan 31, 2021 3:48:29 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Jan 31, 2021 3:48:29 GMT

Jan 31, 2021 0:23:12 GMT flakstruk said:

History and equipment male it a asw3. Cost may change from testing advice

So we do not base values on feelings; Yet air units in the original game are based on values for squadrons of 25 approximately.

this unit being a Dive Bomber not a Patrol Bomber, fits in that theory.

For one I would really like to see some proof they flew in those formation numbers as other Dive Bomber groups did.

We have made comments this unit needs to combat the cheap allied air units of the 3 ASW value;; again Patrol Bomber values vs Attack Squadron values.

I think we have are heads in the sand if we think we can equate the original concept of PB vs Attack Squadron values relating to every unit that participated in the war

simply by its payloads. This deck with Walrus certainly blew air unit typing out of the sky!!

Maybe its me, but i thought some SA's as in Lone ASW Hunter; believing it to be to little or to much took things like that into account.

weedsrock2
Administrator

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Aichi E13A "Jake" *Done* Jan 31, 2021 5:56:48 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jan 31, 2021 5:56:48 GMT

First, we have discussed the issue of "is this really representing a 25 aircraft squadron" with long-range reconnaissance aircraft like seaplanes before. No, they usually didn't and probably none of the seaplane/flying boat/floatplanes in this game actually meet that definition. So this is a very abstract game. In this case I am putting much more emphasis on "game mechanics and need" and the stats of previous seaplanes in the game than on history. Although history certainly supports it as well as just about any unit in game.

As I said before, I see this as a rare chance to give the Axis a decent ASW 3 aircraft that they sorely lack. If any Axis aircraft fits that statistic it is the Jake. ASW was part of the design perspective, and they were fitted with specialized ASW equipment, and flew in special attack units of three aircraft for the last 18 months or so of the war. That is historically more than most of the ASW aircraft in this game.

Lone ASW Hunter is a viable SA for this unit, but I don't think we need the nerf in this case.

Last Edit: Jan 31, 2021 5:57:45 GMT by weedsrock2

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raevski Administrator Cooking with gas Posts: 1,615	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Jan 31, 2021 7:04:57 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by raevski on Jan 31, 2021 7:04:57 GMT I have no drama with ASW 3. This is a dedicated ASW aircraft, with special sub seeking devices.

weedsrock2
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Aichi E13A "Jake" *Done* Jan 31, 2021 7:44:47 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Jan 31, 2021 7:44:47 GMT

If this is where we are what would be the cost?

Aichi E13A "Jake"

Maker: Aichi
Introduced: 1941
Wingspan: 47ft, 7 in
Length: 37ft, 1in
Speed: 234 mph at 7,155 ft
Forumini Speed: 13
Service Ceiling: 28,640 ft
Armament: 1 x 7.7mm MG, 1 x 551 lb bomb, 4 x 132 lb bombs, or 4 x DCs
Range : 1,128 miles
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aichi E13A "Jake"
Aircraft – Dive Bomber
1941
Cost: ?
Bomb: 7
ASW: 3
A/VA/HP: 4/7/1

SAs
Sea Basing - This unit can base only in a coast or an island sector on your side of the map. Don't place a Rearming counter on this unit during your Air Return step.
Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Ships roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their main Gunnery attack this turn.

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Theaetetus Forumini Rear Admiral Posts: 4,924	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Jan 31, 2021 12:51:30 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Theaetetus on Jan 31, 2021 12:51:30 GMT 10 points?
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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Jan 31, 2021 21:52:18 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Jan 31, 2021 21:52:18 GMT Jan 31, 2021 12:51:30 GMT Theaetetus said: 10 points? Way too much IMO. 7 to 8 I would think. This is not an Emily. RAEVSKI?
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raevski Administrator Cooking with gas Posts: 1,615	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Feb 1, 2021 5:47:52 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by raevski on Feb 1, 2021 5:47:52 GMT 7.5 sorry 7 might be too cheap 8 feels better. Reference points are Rufe and Emily against Rufe it is 7 but seems cheap with a 7 bomb and Emily 8.

raevski Administrator Cooking with gas Posts: 1,615	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Feb 1, 2021 5:48:23 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by raevski on Feb 1, 2021 5:48:23 GMT Feb 1, 2021 5:47:52 GMT raevski said: 7.5 sorry 7 might be too cheap 8 feels better. Reference points are Rufe and Emily against Rufe it is 7 but seems cheap with a 7 bomb and Emily 8. Spotting is a wanted SA.

weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Feb 1, 2021 7:15:55 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Feb 1, 2021 7:15:55 GMT I am fine with 8. How about everyone else?
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au64 Deck E playtester Posts: 1,847	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Feb 1, 2021 15:45:18 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by au64 on Feb 1, 2021 15:45:18 GMT Compared to other Japanese air units and the fact that it has spotter AND doesn't take up space in the Airbase or on a carrier, I have to agree that 8 seems right.

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Feb 1, 2021 18:15:24 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Feb 1, 2021 18:15:24 GMT I like 8. Another direct comparison between Emily and Jake is that this boat can’t benefit from its own buff. It also can’t work at range 0 or 1 spotting, so it’s got less utility as the typical game wears on.
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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	Aichi E13A "Jake" Done Feb 1, 2021 22:25:17 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Feb 1, 2021 22:25:17 GMT Ready for play testing at 8 cost?
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waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

Aichi E13A "Jake" *Done* Feb 1, 2021 22:43:29 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Feb 1, 2021 22:43:29 GMT

Taking a direct look at both is pretty revealing to me;

Jake's got the edge in Bombs equal in ASW, but no Torp.attack that Emily can buff if you want to keep spending 10 pts and again it is limited to airfield space.

Sea basing is a lot better than Loiter;;; Spotting and Shadow each have their own value, Emily has plus in D armament and right now 2 or maybe 3pts.more.

Defensive line is the same 4-7-1

I think Theaetetus was on the right track; 10 is to much, but 9 is not with another SA;; putting it at Late 298's cost.

for example Deceptive Target; Finish Him Off; Rugged--Elan;; Surprise;;; Giving it more viability but yet controlling numbers per game with cost.

weedsrock2
Administrator

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Aichi E13A "Jake" *Done* Feb 1, 2021 23:48:57 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Feb 1, 2021 23:48:57 GMT

Feb 1, 2021 22:43:29 GMT waratsea4 said:

Taking a direct look at both is pretty revealing to me;

Jake's got the edge in Bombs equal in ASW, but no Torp.attack that Emily can buff if you want to keep spending 10 pts and again it is limited to airfield space.

Sea basing is a lot better than Loiter;;; Spotting and Shadow each have their own value, Emily has plus in D armament and right now 2 or maybe 3pts.more.

Defensive line is the same 4-7-1

I think Theaetetus was on the right track; 10 is to much, but 9 is not with another SA;; putting it at Late 298's cost.

for example Deceptive Target; Finish Him Off; Rugged--Elan;; Surprise;;; Giving it more viability but yet controlling numbers per game with cost.

So you are advocating for 9?

I think that is too much. At that price they would rarely be used, certainly not for Spotting. Bomb 7 with no torps makes them useless against capital ships. I don't see them being "swarmed" because even at a cost of 8 you would run out of unit allotment per fleet cost without enough ships to actually take objectives.

Shimming with another SA doesn't help. We have learned that hard way especially back during the first two decks. Another SA that is not complementary is added, the cost goes up and then the unit is too expensive to use for the one SA you want to use while the others are on the card doing nothing except making the price too high. Units in Deck 2 are especially chronically over-costed because of "SA shimming."

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Aichi E13A "Jake" Done

Post by flakstruk on Jan 31, 2021 0:23:12 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Jan 31, 2021 3:48:29 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jan 31, 2021 5:56:48 GMT

Post by raevski on Jan 31, 2021 7:04:57 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jan 31, 2021 7:44:47 GMT

Post by Theaetetus on Jan 31, 2021 12:51:30 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jan 31, 2021 21:52:18 GMT

Post by raevski on Feb 1, 2021 5:47:52 GMT

Post by raevski on Feb 1, 2021 5:48:23 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Feb 1, 2021 7:15:55 GMT

Post by au64 on Feb 1, 2021 15:45:18 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Feb 1, 2021 18:15:24 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Feb 1, 2021 22:25:17 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Feb 1, 2021 22:43:29 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Feb 1, 2021 23:48:57 GMT

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