Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE**

ticat1
Moderator

"Ready, Aye, Ready"

Posts: 1,363

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 14, 2019 20:53:47 GMT

Quote

Post by ticat1 on Oct 14, 2019 20:53:47 GMT

OK confession time:

For whatever reason, I forgot that this was a public unit and put it through the team process. This is what we came up with and playtested. By no means am I saying we need to go with this. Please, comment on this and we'll make it the way everyone likes. Kaiho is also mostly a theoretical name. If anyone has a resource that tells what it would have been called, I'm all ears

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kaiho

Commissioned: Not started
Decommissioned: Not started
Displacement: 30,360 tons standard
Length(OA): 858 ft
Beam: 98.5 ft (actually the same as Taiho according to Navypedia. 6 ft wider than Taiho according to Conway's.)
Speed: 33 kts
Armament: 16 × 100 mm (3.9 in)/65 cal Type 98 anti-aircraft guns (8x2), 66 × Type 96 25 mm (0.98 in) anti-aircraft cannons (22x3)
Aircraft Capacity: 75
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Year: 1945
Type: Carrier
Cap: 3
Cost: 24-26?
Speed: 2
MG: 4/4/3
AA: 9
A/VA/HP 4/10/4

Armored Deck 1 - Whenever an enemy unit makes a Bomb attack against this unit, this unit gets +1 armor and +1 vital armor against that attack.
Expert Dogfighter - Once per turn, you may choose a friendly Fighter. That Fighter rolls one extra attack die when making Antiair attacks this turn.
Expert Torpedoes - Once per turn, you may choose a friendly Torpedo Bomber. That Torpedo Bomber rolls one extra attack die when making Torpedo attacks this turn.
Torpedo Defense 1 - Each torpedo hit rolled against this unit deals 1 less point of hull damage.

Last Edit: Mar 14, 2020 2:03:55 GMT by weedsrock2

To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high.
-In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

admiralackbar
Forumini Ensign

Posts: 74

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 15, 2019 9:53:34 GMT

Quote

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 15, 2019 9:53:34 GMT

I don't post on here often, but I'm always lurking and figured this time I'd throw in my two cents, mostly on Taihou Kai's name. Also, I'm not sure if there are any rules for posting in this public development section, but it is public after all.

None of the resources I have on hand nor any source I have found online give a proper name for the Improved Taihou Class / G-15 design. The 5 ships of the class that were ordered were all given hull numbers, no. 5021-5025, but that's the apparent extent of any title given to them. She could be called Taihou Kai in the game, which I personally would be fine with, but would be a little out of place relative to how other "what-if" ships have been named in W@S.

If the forum wishes to give her a theoretical name, she should naturally be named given the Japanese naming conventions for aircraft carriers. By the time Taihou-Kai would have been started, the naming convention would have dictated that she be named after:

Flying creatures, either mythological or real. This was the only naming convention up until 1943, outside of a few exceptions for ships that were laid down as something else to begin with. (Akagi, Kaga, Chitose, Chiyoda)

Starting in 1943, carriers were also named after mountains. This was used for all 4 ships of the Unryuu class, outside of Unryuu herself, as well as the nameship of the Ikoma subclass.

I believe either convention would be suitable, considering when Taihou-Kai would have been laid down / launched. The task then is picking an appropriate and fitting name.

Last Edit: Oct 15, 2019 9:56:46 GMT by admiralackbar

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 16, 2019 3:20:37 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 16, 2019 3:20:37 GMT

Oct 15, 2019 9:53:34 GMT admiralackbar said:

I don't post on here often, but I'm always lurking and figured this time I'd throw in my two cents, mostly on Taihou Kai's name. Also, I'm not sure if there are any rules for posting in this public development section, but it is public after all.

None of the resources I have on hand nor any source I have found online give a proper name for the Improved Taihou Class / G-15 design. The 5 ships of the class that were ordered were all given hull numbers, no. 5021-5025, but that's the apparent extent of any title given to them. She could be called Taihou Kai in the game, which I personally would be fine with, but would be a little out of place relative to how other "what-if" ships have been named in W@S.

If the forum wishes to give her a theoretical name, she should naturally be named given the Japanese naming conventions for aircraft carriers. By the time Taihou-Kai would have been started, the naming convention would have dictated that she be named after:

Flying creatures, either mythological or real. This was the only naming convention up until 1943, outside of a few exceptions for ships that were laid down as something else to begin with. (Akagi, Kaga, Chitose, Chiyoda)

Starting in 1943, carriers were also named after mountains. This was used for all 4 ships of the Unryuu class, outside of Unryuu herself, as well as the nameship of the Ikoma subclass.

I believe either convention would be suitable, considering when Taihou-Kai would have been laid down / launched. The task then is picking an appropriate and fitting name.

So, are there any historical (19th century to WWI) IJN capital ships that had a name that would qualify with those naming conventions that was not in use during WWII? That is how we usually try to find "what if" ship names. It's not always possible, but it is preferred since there is at least a history of that navy using the name.

And yes, all are welcome to participate in these public development threads.

Last Edit: Oct 16, 2019 3:21:19 GMT by weedsrock2

The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care"
Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!

waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 17, 2019 19:31:56 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Oct 17, 2019 19:31:56 GMT

Did a little research and came up with this;

This is the Project g15 carrier, an improvements of Taiho, known as "Hakuryu (white dragon)" by world of warships community, and known as "Kai-Taiho" or "Taiho-kai" by the shipbucket communities.

I am not claiming its name as Hakuryu because the g15 never gave names. but its a nice one.

I like Ticat 1's proposed SA's I just think dropping Expert Fighter for Expert Bomber gives it more juice

admiralackbar
Forumini Ensign

Posts: 74

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 17, 2019 21:54:24 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 17, 2019 21:54:24 GMT

I went through all major navel vessels from the mid 1800s to ~ww1, and have what should be a complete list of possible names using the 1943 naming convention. All ships named using this convention (Amagi, Katsuragi, Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma, Kaimon) were named after mountains, and also shared that name with previous vessels from this time period. So, these names fit all the requirements to be theoretical real ijn carrier names.

Niitaka - Niitaka class protected cruiser
Tsukuba - Tsukuba class armored cruiser (and a screw sloop)
Kurama - Ibuki class armored cruiser
Otowa - protected cruiser
Takachiho- Naniwa class protected cruiser
Unebi - protected cruiser
Yoshino - protected cruiser
Banjou - gunboat
Azuma - armored cruiser (hulked)
Asama - Asana class armored cruiser (disarmed)*

Every ship on this list is a viable option, Azuma and Asama with asterisks. Azuma was hulked and removed from the naval register by 1943, which would probably open up the name for use. Asama was pretty much entirely disarmed, but still apparently on the naval register and arguably operational, so that name being usable is maybe possible, but less likely.

I personally happen to like Niitaka the best, mostly becuase it sounds cool. Niitaka has some symbolism points too because it was the largest mountain in the Japanese Empire at the time (Taiwan), and "Climb Mount Niitaka" being the coded message that initiated the attack on Pearl harbor. Fitting name for what would have been the most advanced Japanese carrier, no?

I also looked into some names for the original ijn carrier naming convention, flying mythological creatures. Fabricating an original name in this requires a greater knowledge of the language than I have (virtually none). I did find 2 specific entities from shared Japanese/Chinese mythology that could be suitable names. These are 2 of them:

Suzaku - すざく - The Vermillion Bird
Seiryuu - せいりゅう - The Azur Dragon

These are 2 creatures of the Four Symbols in Chinese constellations, and represent the cardinal directions among other things.

Generally, I prefer the names based on mountains/old ships, but I figured I'd share these 2 options as well.

Last Edit: Oct 17, 2019 22:54:43 GMT by admiralackbar

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 18, 2019 0:55:20 GMT RH likes this

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 18, 2019 0:55:20 GMT

Oct 17, 2019 19:31:56 GMT waratsea4 said:

Did a little research and came up with this;

This is the Project g15 carrier, an improvements of Taiho, known as "Hakuryu (white dragon)" by world of warships community, and known as "Kai-Taiho" or "Taiho-kai" by the shipbucket communities.

I am not claiming its name as Hakuryu because the g15 never gave names. but its a nice one.

I like Ticat 1's proposed SA's I just think dropping Expert Fighter for Expert Bomber gives it more juice

I prefer the Expert Dogfighter because we are mostly dealing with A6M variants and they desperately need the AA attack boost. Even the Sam needs it compared to the Corsair. The IJN seems to have better torpedo bombers in the game than dive bombers so the feeling was that was the attack best to boost. But either would be fine with me. I think all three would make the carrier too expensive.

The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care"
Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 18, 2019 1:10:25 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 18, 2019 1:10:25 GMT

Oct 17, 2019 21:54:24 GMT admiralackbar said:

I went through all major navel vessels from the mid 1800s to ~ww1, and have what should be a complete list of possible names using the 1943 naming convention. All ships named using this convention (Amagi, Katsuragi, Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma, Kaimon) were named after mountains, and also shared that name with previous vessels from this time period. So, these names fit all the requirements to be theoretical real ijn carrier names.

Niitaka - Niitaka class protected cruiser
Tsukuba - Tsukuba class armored cruiser (and a screw sloop)
Kurama - Ibuki class armored cruiser
Otowa - protected cruiser
Takachiho- Naniwa class protected cruiser
Unebi - protected cruiser
Yoshino - protected cruiser
Banjou - gunboat
Azuma - armored cruiser (hulked)
Asama - Asana class armored cruiser (disarmed)*

Every ship on this list is a viable option, Azuma and Asama with asterisks. Azuma was hulked and removed from the naval register by 1943, which would probably open up the name for use. Asama was pretty much entirely disarmed, but still apparently on the naval register and arguably operational, so that name being usable is maybe possible, but less likely.

I personally happen to like Niitaka the best, mostly becuase it sounds cool. Niitaka has some symbolism points too because it was the largest mountain in the Japanese Empire at the time (Taiwan), and "Climb Mount Niitaka" being the coded message that initiated the attack on Pearl harbor. Fitting name for what would have been the most advanced Japanese carrier, no?

I also looked into some names for the original ijn carrier naming convention, flying mythological creatures. Fabricating an original name in this requires a greater knowledge of the language than I have (virtually none). I did find 2 specific entities from shared Japanese/Chinese mythology that could be suitable names. These are 2 of them:

Suzaku - すざく - The Vermillion Bird
Seiryuu - せいりゅう - The Azur Dragon

These are 2 creatures of the Four Symbols in Chinese constellations, and represent the cardinal directions among other things.

Generally, I prefer the names based on mountains/old ships, but I figured I'd share these 2 options as well.

Awesome research. Thank you so much!

I see your point on Niitaka, but it also carries some baggage for being the code name for the attack as well. Also, the fact that it is no longer a part of Japan (even though it was then) might be a little off-putting to some.

I think Kurama or Yoshino would be the easiest for "westerners" to pronounce and would be just fine. I personally like Tsukuba just because it sounds and looks a little more "Japanese" to me, but a little harder for some to pronounce. I am afraid Suzaku would end up being said "Suzuki" by a lot of players.

I have no idea how to pronounce Seiryuu.

Hakuryu is cool, but I am leery of taking something from the World of Warships guys. Plus it sounds like an Unryu class to me.

My two cents anyway. In the end, it really doesn't matter.

The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care"
Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!

ticat1 Moderator "Ready, Aye, Ready" Posts: 1,363	Kaiho - Taiho Sister DONE Oct 18, 2019 14:45:48 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by ticat1 on Oct 18, 2019 14:45:48 GMT admiralackbar, that's a phenomenal amount of research and I appreciate the thoroughness. Reminds me of me, lol.
	To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high. -In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	Kaiho - Taiho Sister DONE Oct 18, 2019 19:56:45 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Oct 18, 2019 19:56:45 GMT I feel like the mountain convention was a pecularity of the unryu class.

ticat1
Moderator

"Ready, Aye, Ready"

Posts: 1,363

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 18, 2019 20:45:53 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by ticat1 on Oct 18, 2019 20:45:53 GMT

Oct 18, 2019 1:10:25 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Oct 17, 2019 21:54:24 GMT admiralackbar said:

I went through all major navel vessels from the mid 1800s to ~ww1, and have what should be a complete list of possible names using the 1943 naming convention. All ships named using this convention (Amagi, Katsuragi, Kasagi, Aso, Ikoma, Kaimon) were named after mountains, and also shared that name with previous vessels from this time period. So, these names fit all the requirements to be theoretical real ijn carrier names.

Niitaka - Niitaka class protected cruiser
Tsukuba - Tsukuba class armored cruiser (and a screw sloop)
Kurama - Ibuki class armored cruiser
Otowa - protected cruiser
Takachiho- Naniwa class protected cruiser
Unebi - protected cruiser
Yoshino - protected cruiser
Banjou - gunboat
Azuma - armored cruiser (hulked)
Asama - Asana class armored cruiser (disarmed)*

Every ship on this list is a viable option, Azuma and Asama with asterisks. Azuma was hulked and removed from the naval register by 1943, which would probably open up the name for use. Asama was pretty much entirely disarmed, but still apparently on the naval register and arguably operational, so that name being usable is maybe possible, but less likely.

I personally happen to like Niitaka the best, mostly becuase it sounds cool. Niitaka has some symbolism points too because it was the largest mountain in the Japanese Empire at the time (Taiwan), and "Climb Mount Niitaka" being the coded message that initiated the attack on Pearl harbor. Fitting name for what would have been the most advanced Japanese carrier, no?

I also looked into some names for the original ijn carrier naming convention, flying mythological creatures. Fabricating an original name in this requires a greater knowledge of the language than I have (virtually none). I did find 2 specific entities from shared Japanese/Chinese mythology that could be suitable names. These are 2 of them:

Suzaku - すざく - The Vermillion Bird
Seiryuu - せいりゅう - The Azur Dragon

These are 2 creatures of the Four Symbols in Chinese constellations, and represent the cardinal directions among other things.

Generally, I prefer the names based on mountains/old ships, but I figured I'd share these 2 options as well.

Awesome research. Thank you so much!

I see your point on Niitaka, but it also carries some baggage for being the code name for the attack as well. Also, the fact that it is no longer a part of Japan (even though it was then) might be a little off-putting to some.

I think Kurama or Yoshino would be the easiest for "westerners" to pronounce and would be just fine. I personally like Tsukuba just because it sounds and looks a little more "Japanese" to me, but a little harder for some to pronounce. I am afraid Suzaku would end up being said "Suzuki" by a lot of players.

I have no idea how to pronounce Seiryuu.

Hakuryu is cool, but I am leery of taking something from the World of Warships guys. Plus it sounds like an Unryu class to me.

My two cents anyway. In the end, it really doesn't matter.

"Ryu" translates as dragon and is also in Soryu and Hiryu.

"Ho" from Taiho means phoenix and is found in Shoho and Zuiho as well Hosho.

One other consistency seems that sister ships are named after the same birds/ flying creatures. As such this sister should feature "ho."

Unless it's different enough that it would be a different class. If that's the case, I would suggest Yamadori, which means Mountain Pheasant. It follows the naming tradition, but is also entirely original and non speculative

To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high.
-In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	Kaiho - Taiho Sister DONE Oct 18, 2019 22:49:42 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Oct 18, 2019 22:49:42 GMT The intent was a sister. Its like the last of the illustrious class, who's nane escapes me, in that respect. Something-Ho

ticat1
Moderator

"Ready, Aye, Ready"

Posts: 1,363

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 19, 2019 0:10:37 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by ticat1 on Oct 19, 2019 0:10:37 GMT

Oct 18, 2019 22:49:42 GMT flakstruk said:

The intent was a sister.

Its like the last of the illustrious class, who's nane escapes me, in that respect.

Something-Ho

Hojo fits the convention as well. Means Prancing Phoenix

Akaiho would be Red Phoenix and flows well with the names of the other carriers and Taiho as well

To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high.
-In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	Kaiho - Taiho Sister DONE Oct 19, 2019 1:22:11 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Oct 19, 2019 1:22:11 GMT The second one

admiralackbar
Forumini Ensign

Posts: 74

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 19, 2019 1:41:40 GMT

Quote

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 19, 2019 1:41:40 GMT

Oct 18, 2019 22:49:42 GMT flakstruk said:

The intent was a sister.

Its like the last of the illustrious class, who's nane escapes me, in that respect.

Something-Ho

No source I've seen lists the G15 carrier design as a sister ship. Taihou was ordered as a single ship under the "Fourth Naval Armaments Supplement Program" of 1939, while Taihou-Kai was ordered as a class of 5 under the "Modified Circle Five Program
" of September 1942. She may be similar in design, but she is designated as a distinct class and features design changes compared to Taihou herself.

If the name of the project, Taihou-Kai/ Improved Taihou is leading some to believe them to be sisters, let me mention that the unofficial title for Unryuu within the IJN was "Modified Hiryū class (改飛龍型 Kai Hiryū-gata)". The Unryuu class shares many similarities with Hiryuu; likely more similarities than Taihou would have shared with the G15 carrier. However, the Unryuu carriers are never officially considered to be sisters under the Hiryuu class, as they were built under different programs at different times to different designs.
Other ships that are very similar yet are designated as distinctly separate classes are the Mogami class -> Ibuki, Kagero class -> Yuugumo class, Atlanta class -> Juneau class, among many others.

I also still believe that the revised naming convention for IJN carriers is more realistic (sharing the name with an older ship named after a mountain). It's theoretically possible that the Unryuu class was a peculiarity, but given what actually happened, the last 6 IJN carriers to be named all followed this convention. I find it less likely that 6 ships, 2 of which under a subclass also given this type of name, were all part of a one-off peculiarity. The peculiarity stems most likely from the fact that no other carrier classes followed the Unryuus and would have shown continuation in the naming system. Considering the only carriers laid down for the remainder of the war were the Unryuus, I think it fair to go after them.

As for names within that category, I still happen to like Niitaka, Tsububa, and Kurama the best, but every name on that list is suitable.

Last Edit: Oct 19, 2019 4:47:58 GMT by admiralackbar

admiralackbar
Forumini Ensign

Posts: 74

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE** Oct 19, 2019 2:28:27 GMT

Quote

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 19, 2019 2:28:27 GMT

As for the actual unit itself, I think the current SAs right off the bat are suitable. If anything, maybe they should be a little more powerful.

Considering this is a 1945 unit, this carrier's purpose should, in my opinion, be to try and close the gap a little bit between USN carrier and air power in that year. Armored deck and torpedo defense are mandatory IMO, alongside expert dogfighter. I think having expert torp over bomb more emphasizes the Japanese "flavor" as well. The only thing I'm really thinking about is if it's appropriate to have a expert dogfighter or bomber 2 on here. I'm not super fond of having too many expert dogfighter 2s around, but the Japanese fighters could use the 2 dice when fighting in 1945. This is just me thinking aloud though. At the very least expert dogfighter 1 is necessary.

The way she is now, I think 25/26 points is reasonable. Her survivability is much better compared to the prewar IJN fleet carriers, but she's gonna be a little lighter on offensive SAs when compared to the other carriers, so I think around this point cost is pretty justified.

Also, Taihou-Kai has 4 more 100mm AA guns, is this enough to warrant increasing her gunnery? As she is, she has the same gunnery values as Taihou, yet has a third more barrels.

Gallery Title:
Image URL:
Image Title:
Comment:
Tick this box if you would like to allow other members to add images to your gallery.Add Image

title

Kaiho - Taiho Sister **DONE**

Post by ticat1 on Oct 14, 2019 20:53:47 GMT

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 15, 2019 9:53:34 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 16, 2019 3:20:37 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Oct 17, 2019 19:31:56 GMT

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 17, 2019 21:54:24 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 18, 2019 0:55:20 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 18, 2019 1:10:25 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Oct 18, 2019 14:45:48 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Oct 18, 2019 19:56:45 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Oct 18, 2019 20:45:53 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Oct 18, 2019 22:49:42 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Oct 19, 2019 0:10:37 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Oct 19, 2019 1:22:11 GMT

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 19, 2019 1:41:40 GMT

Post by admiralackbar on Oct 19, 2019 2:28:27 GMT

Quick Reply

Kaiho - Taiho Sister DONE