12 WITH EXPERT FIGHTER INCLUDING 3 WITH DOG FIGHTER 2 8 WITH EXPERT BOMBER INCLUDING 2 WITH BOMBER 2 6 WITH EXPERT TORPEDO ONE WITH ALL 3 AKAGI TWICE AND 1 WITH EXPERT BOMB AND TORPEDO
I THINK THE GAME HAS AN OVER OBSESSION WITH FIGHTERS AND I DON'T BELIEVE A LATE WAR
IJN CVS WITH ALL THE FIGHTER HELP YOU WANT TO GIVE IT IS GOING TO STOP THE USN FROM SWARMING YOU
TO DEATH, YOUR ONLY HELP IS GETTING THOUGH THAT MASSIVE AA AND FIGHTER BLITZ AND DROPPING A BIGGER LOAD.
HOW YOU GOING TO DO THAT WITH WHATS IN THE SA ARSENAL RIGHT ALL THREE EXPERT'S AND VETERN BOMBER
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING THATS GOING TO STAND UP TO AN ESSEX I HOPE YOU WANT MORE AN A PROPHYLACTIC DESIGN.
YOUR NOT GOING TO PUT A BUILD AROUND HER WITHOUT OTHER CARRIERS; IF YOUR DEFENSIVE MINDED YOUR GOT PLENTY OF
EXPERT FIGHTERS YOU'LL NEVER HAVE ENOUGH EXPERT BOMBER OR TORPEDO
THE BEST SA'S FOR THIS CARRIER ARE ARMORED DECK; TORPEDO DEFENSE; VETERN BOMB; AND ONE OR TWO OF THE EXPERTS
Here is the information I looked up on this unit for the dev team. I am copying and pasting over here.
First background information post -
Conway's says, "Two further slightly enlarged ships proposed in the 1942 Programme (Nos 801, 802), and five more in the 1942 Supplementary Programme (Nos 5021-5) were never begun."
Fleets of WWII says, "A proposal for two refined Taihos eventually expanded to include five ships (30,360 tons, 16 x 3.9 in DP guns, AC 53, 33 kntos), but no construction took place. The desire frolarger air groups prompted a look into 50,00 ton possibilities.
I have assumed that this would be a simple sister-ship of Taiho. The navypedia article says the "improved sisters" would have been a little longer and the maximum width of the flight deck would have actually been the same. So the two sisters would have been only a tiny bit bigger (only 700 tons more displacement.) I would be okay with repeating the specs for Taiho with the longer length and width, and increased number of 3.9 in DPS, and assume everything else was going to be pretty much the same. Note Conway's states in the text that Taiho had a "practical maximum of 75 planes even though the specs table says 53 operational max, and 84 with replacements (that would have been in boxes.) Since the sisters would be only a little changed I think 75 AC and CAP 3 will do the job.
It looks to me like the two original sisters were going to be just minor improvements. I am totally okay with that. The five additional might have been much bigger, but that is really getting into napkin territory IMO.
I will look through my other books and see if I can find anything more. My guess is they would have crammed on a lot more 25 mm's by the time it was completed.
So far it looks like we have:
Kaiho
Commissioned: Not started Decommissioned: Not started Displacement: 30,360 tons standard Length(OA): 858 ft Beam: 98.5 ft (actually the same as Taiho according to Navypedia. 6 ft wider than Taiho according to Conway's.) Speed: 33 kts Armament: 16 × 100 mm (3.9 in)/65 cal Type 98 anti-aircraft guns (8x2), 66 × Type 96 25 mm (0.98 in) anti-aircraft cannons (22x3)
Add some kind of AA special ability to account for the increased AA if you don't bump it to 9. Going to AA 9 might raise some eyebrows. The Essex class had 12 x 5 in guns increased to 18 with Midway. Taiho had 12 x 3.9 in guns increased to 16. Close call IMO. I think 9 is okay compared to the other ships with 9 AA in the game. But no additional AA Special Ability if 9 IMO.
Next post:
Japanese Warships of World War II says, "Nos. 801-802 of a modified type were ordered under the 1942 Programme but were never built. They were to have been of 30,100 tons and 33 knots. Nos. 5021-5025 were ordered under the 1942 Modified Programme but were cancelled. These were also modified Taiho type of 30,360 tons and carrying 16 x 3.9 in A.A., and 66-25 mm A.A. and 53 planes. They would have been 867 ft 9 in overall length with a flight deck 858 x 98.5 ft.
Next post -
Japanese Warships of World War II says, "Nos. 801-802 of a modified type were ordered under the 1942 Programme but were never built. They were to have been of 30,100 tons and 33 knots. Nos. 5021-5025 were ordered under the 1942 Modified Programme but were cancelled. These were also modified Taiho type of 30,360 tons and carrying 16 x 3.9 in A.A., and 66-25 mm A.A. and 53 planes. They would have been 867 ft 9 in overall length with a flight deck 858 x 98.5 ft.
So it looks like the Conway's specs actually match the second design. We are only talking about 1,000 tons in difference in displacement. At this size that isn't really very much. In WaS terms there really isn't any difference so I think we should go with the variant we actually have specs for. I will increase dimensions and the 25 mm to 66X in the summary above.
[div]Next post -[/div]
I should also mention that Fleets of World War II has very high praise for the Taiho design. The author said the reason she blew up was mainly because they IJN had to use unrefined fuel oil by that time which is very volatile. Combined with a very lucky hit location and the bad luck of the elevator getting stuck in the up position which prevented ventilation.
Last post -
Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy actually has a table of specifications for the "Modified Taiho (G.15)" It gives three displacements Nos 801,802 to be 30,100 tons, and Nos. 5021-25 to be 30,360 tons as given by the other references above.
However, it gives all seven carriers the same basic specs. That's not surprising since the tonnage difference of 250 t is so minor.
Length: 843 at the waterline (does not give flight deck length) Beam: 91 ft 10 in (doesn't say if waterline or flight deck) Speed: 33 knots Armament: 16 x 3.9 in 65-cal AA, 66 x 25mm AA, 53 aircraft.
So it looks to me like we are fine with the basic specifications I summarized above for any of them.
The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care" Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!
12 WITH EXPERT FIGHTER INCLUDING 3 WITH DOG FIGHTER 2 8 WITH EXPERT BOMBER INCLUDING 2 WITH BOMBER 2 6 WITH EXPERT TORPEDO ONE WITH ALL 3 AKAGI TWICE AND 1 WITH EXPERT BOMB AND TORPEDO
I THINK THE GAME HAS AN OVER OBSESSION WITH FIGHTERS AND I DON'T BELIEVE A LATE WAR
IJN CVS WITH ALL THE FIGHTER HELP YOU WANT TO GIVE IT IS GOING TO STOP THE USN FROM SWARMING YOU
TO DEATH, YOUR ONLY HELP IS GETTING THOUGH THAT MASSIVE AA AND FIGHTER BLITZ AND DROPPING A BIGGER LOAD.
HOW YOU GOING TO DO THAT WITH WHATS IN THE SA ARSENAL RIGHT ALL THREE EXPERT'S AND VETERN BOMBER
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING THATS GOING TO STAND UP TO AN ESSEX I HOPE YOU WANT MORE AN A PROPHYLACTIC DESIGN.
YOUR NOT GOING TO PUT A BUILD AROUND HER WITHOUT OTHER CARRIERS; IF YOUR DEFENSIVE MINDED YOUR GOT PLENTY OF
EXPERT FIGHTERS YOU'LL NEVER HAVE ENOUGH EXPERT BOMBER OR TORPEDO
THE BEST SA'S FOR THIS CARRIER ARE ARMORED DECK; TORPEDO DEFENSE; VETERN BOMB; AND ONE OR TWO OF THE EXPERTS
I hope you didn't meant to yell?
I like the idea of adding Veteran Bomber. That SA helps a little to make up for the ridiculous armor values on the US aircraft. I still think Expert Dogfighter is a must-have for the IJN plus one of the bomb experts. Cost is going to be high with all of this. I think we are pushing 27-28 now. But I don't mind "supercharging" this carrier bit for the very late war as long as we don't go too crazy. I think we need to straddle the ability to take on the over-powered US, but still keep the RN fans in the game without power creeping in every direction. I prefer to ignore the existence of the Midway. It is so broken that any attempt to catch up to it will really cause a mess. I think it is enough to be thinking in terms of going up against all those Essex class carriers. Their ability to base 4 aircraft is almost priceless. The Brits with their Implacable class carriers and lend-lease Corsairs and Avengers should be able to keep up. The Firefly's aren't too bad either for the cost IMO.
The issue I see is card space. After TD and AD there really is only room for 2 more SA. You can do 2 experts, or VB and one expert... Choose carefully in this case.
I also agree with Weeds that this should be taken in moderation so it's not stupidly overpowered compared to the European fleets in the game. This as it stands now would be a pain in the rear for most RN fleets, especially purists like me who dont use USN aircraft in my RN fleets except for the starter box Avenger (11pt one). Wish the RN got VB though... I know we got VTB, but there is no real good RN torp plane for it (hence the 11 pt Avenger)... maybe very early war 4 armor Swordfish... but I digress...
12 WITH EXPERT FIGHTER INCLUDING 3 WITH DOG FIGHTER 2 8 WITH EXPERT BOMBER INCLUDING 2 WITH BOMBER 2 6 WITH EXPERT TORPEDO ONE WITH ALL 3 AKAGI TWICE AND 1 WITH EXPERT BOMB AND TORPEDO
I THINK THE GAME HAS AN OVER OBSESSION WITH FIGHTERS AND I DON'T BELIEVE A LATE WAR
IJN CVS WITH ALL THE FIGHTER HELP YOU WANT TO GIVE IT IS GOING TO STOP THE USN FROM SWARMING YOU
TO DEATH, YOUR ONLY HELP IS GETTING THOUGH THAT MASSIVE AA AND FIGHTER BLITZ AND DROPPING A BIGGER LOAD.
HOW YOU GOING TO DO THAT WITH WHATS IN THE SA ARSENAL RIGHT ALL THREE EXPERT'S AND VETERN BOMBER
IF YOU WANT SOMETHING THATS GOING TO STAND UP TO AN ESSEX I HOPE YOU WANT MORE AN A PROPHYLACTIC DESIGN.
YOUR NOT GOING TO PUT A BUILD AROUND HER WITHOUT OTHER CARRIERS; IF YOUR DEFENSIVE MINDED YOUR GOT PLENTY OF
EXPERT FIGHTERS YOU'LL NEVER HAVE ENOUGH EXPERT BOMBER OR TORPEDO
THE BEST SA'S FOR THIS CARRIER ARE ARMORED DECK; TORPEDO DEFENSE; VETERN BOMB; AND ONE OR TWO OF THE EXPERTS
I hope you didn't meant to yell?
I like the idea of adding Veteran Bomber. That SA helps a little to make up for the ridiculous armor values on the US aircraft. I still think Expert Dogfighter is a must-have for the IJN plus one of the bomb experts. Cost is going to be high with all of this. I think we are pushing 27-28 now. But I don't mind "supercharging" this carrier bit for the very late war as long as we don't go too crazy. I think we need to straddle the ability to take on the over-powered US, but still keep the RN fans in the game without power creeping in every direction. I prefer to ignore the existence of the Midway. It is so broken that any attempt to catch up to it will really cause a mess. I think it is enough to be thinking in terms of going up against all those Essex class carriers. Their ability to base 4 aircraft is almost priceless. The Brits with their Implacable class carriers and lend-lease Corsairs and Avengers should be able to keep up. The Firefly's aren't too bad either for the cost IMO.
Heck no, forgot the cap was on, shh at my age i buy slip ons because i forgot how to tie laces!!
To me the answer of two many SA's is a compromise;
Armored Deck and Torpedo Defense can be removed for an up grade in Armor Vital and Hull
and 3 Expert SA's with Veteran Bomber give her the offensive punch you'll need;
Some of the designers may think this stretches game guidelines a little, but 1 the units is something never built
and 2 trying to make a competitive unit against late war USN units needs stretching.
You could upgrade the armor to compensate for dropping Armored Deck, but that wouldn't help against torpedoes. I think TD will need to stay.
texasarcher makes a good point about card space. Not to mention a very busy card overall. The limit on SAs depends a little on text length, but in general four is the limit even on a card with a smaller attack table.
Boost armor by +1 (I would not recommend boosting the vital armor) and drop Armored Deck.
Torpedo Defense
Veteran Bomber
2X Expert SAs
The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care" Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!
No. We do not ever modify stats to account for SAs. And its come up in every devk ive been involved with. We dont even minimise SAs like torpedo protection. It keeps from overloading cards
No. We do not ever modify stats to account for SAs. And its come up in every devk ive been involved with. We dont even minimise SAs like torpedo protection. It keeps from overloading cards
That's true, but I figured we could get away with the armor value because it is a "modified" sister. But I understand.
I need to test a prototype card and see how much room we have. I will try to do that tonight. Although I think 4 SAs is enough for any card.
Im a gamer side player. But i think modifying stats for a sister on a hypothetical so we can add a flavour SA would incense the historical crowd. Theres few enough in the community as is.
Expert trump the flavour sa's in importance.
The ugly alternative is to do a non-sister upgrade. 50000t would take into hull 5 territory. Quasi TD. Plus armour could be modified.
If no armor, TD, veteran bombers, expert torp? W@S made a good point about how dogfighter is more common, however I'm still reluctant to exclude it from a 1945 carrier. I don't want her offensive capabilities to be too weak though.
Last Edit: Oct 21, 2019 8:11:17 GMT by admiralackbar