AR 196 *DONE* | Forumini

au64
Deck E playtester

Posts: 1,847

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 7, 2019 0:29:14 GMT

Quote

Post by au64 on Apr 7, 2019 0:29:14 GMT

Apr 6, 2019 5:37:53 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Apr 5, 2019 14:08:12 GMT au64 said:

So we are looking at this for play testing purposes?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Ar 196
Germany
Aircraft – Fighter
1939
Cost: 9?
MG: 2
AA: 5
Bomb: 3
ASW: 2
A/VA/HP: 4/7/1

Sea Basing - This unit can base only in a coast or an island sector on your side of the map. Don't place a Rearming counter on this unit during your Air Return step.

Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Ships roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their main Gunnery attack this turn.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm a little shaky on the cost and throwing 9 out there as a starting point, the reasons for the 9 is based off of the combination of the two SAs and that the unit has everything on the attack lines except for Torpedoes. To reduce the cost we could get rid of the MG line, after all this unit would never be used to strafe especially when the Armor line would become a 2/5/1.

The Machine Gun value is really only going to be used against the Laffey. To me it is just on there to acknowledge it had the capability, like several other fighter/bombers in the game. I don't think it should affect the cost. That said, if we want to take it off it certainly won't affect its playability my much. 9 seems a bit steep for such a weak aircraft. Yes, Spotter is a good SA, but will this aircraft survive very long to use it? It's own native attacks are very weak. Seems more like a 7 to me. Maybe an 8. Compare to the Rufe at 8 points with MG2, AA6, 5/8/1 armor, Night Fighter and Interceptor. The difference in armor values is a pretty big deal IMO.

Yes the Rufe is 8pts, but it has NO offensive capabilities other than strafing. This has Bombs, ASW, and a spotter ability that currently gives an add to ALL ships 2 or more away from the target. This also means that you can lure enemy fighters into your ships airspace to shoot them down. It's not worse than many other PBs out there from a defensive standpoint. Using this comes means you want placement advantage.

Additionally it can use it's ASW/AA/Bombs in the same turn it uses spotter. It can also be stacked with Scout Cruiser etc...

It's not just the unit, but also what other impact it has on general gameplay. These advantages I think call for it to be 9 points.

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 7, 2019 1:08:29 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 7, 2019 1:08:29 GMT

Apr 6, 2019 18:04:26 GMT waratsea4 said:

Apr 6, 2019 5:41:06 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Well, I still like the idea of giving the +1 only to Main Gunnery attacks at Range 2 or greater. I think that simulates the value of a spotter aircraft more accurately. Maybe its a small thing, but I think it makes it a little more fun to "work it" IMO.

I do to;; But let me see if i'm getting this right; a ship 2 sectors for a spotting plane is the target, but

its possible a firing ship can be 4 sectors from the spotting plane only 2 sectors from the spotted ship 20,000 yards 12 miles.

I guess its all in fun and balance;; to me it just seems spotting should be a little more personal than scouting.

Like the Coastal SA really shows as i've read outside of pure Fighters this plane was tough one of the best.

Another good SA for this type of plane is Flares used especially well by the IJN;

Flares; At night any ship in this planes sector does not benefit from the Darkness Rules

You have it right. The target ship must be within 2 sectors of the Arado (line of site after all). But the attacking ships can be at any legal range for that ship and the bonus applies if the attacking ship is 2 sectors or further away. I think this mirrors the "real world" quite well. One of the main uses for a spotter aircraft was to enable a surface ship to attack a target "over the horizon" from the attacking ship. The fall of shot and firing adjustments were communicated between the spotter and the friendly attacking ship(s) by radio. (I think they could use signal lamps as well.) This was mainly important before targeting radar early in the war of course. But targeting radar was only gradually introduced throughout the war and varied by nation.

Flares is very interesting too. I agree they were especially effective for the IJN in the Java Sea campaign and Guadalcanal. I guess we need to do a Pete sometime. I don't recall reading anything about the Arado's using flares. I will skim through my books again. Maybe the Jake?

Last Edit: Apr 7, 2019 1:13:26 GMT by weedsrock2

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waratsea4 Forumini Lieutenant Posts: 839	AR 196 DONE Apr 8, 2019 20:28:55 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by waratsea4 on Apr 8, 2019 20:28:55 GMT SWO DaDDy;; had it all along;; perfect SA for these type of units;; Gunnery Spotter;; i have the cards, guess i should paid close attention.
	Last Edit: Apr 15, 2019 18:25:28 GMT by waratsea4

ticat1
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AR 196 *DONE* Apr 29, 2019 23:54:09 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by ticat1 on Apr 29, 2019 23:54:09 GMT

Give it a try at 9 and if we have to adjust, we can

--------------------------------------------------------------
Ar 196
Germany
Aircraft – Fighter
1939
Cost: 9?
MG: 2
AA: 5
Bomb: 3
ASW: 2
A/VA/HP: 4/7/1

Sea Basing - This unit can base only in a coast or an island sector on your side of the map. Don't place a Rearming counter on this unit during your Air Return step.

Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Ships roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their main Gunnery attack this turn.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high.
-In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

SWO_Daddy
Deck E developer

Posts: 6,016

AR 196 *DONE* May 3, 2019 3:28:01 GMT

Quote

Post by SWO_Daddy on May 3, 2019 3:28:01 GMT

I may have missed this in a previous post back in the archive (if so, my apologies). Is the absence of a mission selection or an SA like it intentional? If so, the fixed type of 'fighter' prevents this from being escorted and, combined with the stuka-like armor stats, puts a bit of a handcuff on it. If the German/Axis player can't achieve air superiority, this plane will be meat for most opposing fighters. More than willing to playtest it as is, but if it can't be escorted, I think the cost of 9 may be too high.

Last Edit: May 3, 2019 3:31:34 GMT by SWO_Daddy

I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way.
- Captain John Paul Jones

au64
Deck E playtester

Posts: 1,847

AR 196 *DONE* May 3, 2019 14:43:35 GMT

Quote

Post by au64 on May 3, 2019 14:43:35 GMT

May 3, 2019 3:28:01 GMT SWO_Daddy said:

I may have missed this in a previous post back in the archive (if so, my apologies). Is the absence of a mission selection or an SA like it intentional? If so, the fixed type of 'fighter' prevents this from being escorted and, combined with the stuka-like armor stats, puts a bit of a handcuff on it. If the German/Axis player can't achieve air superiority, this plane will be meat for most opposing fighters. More than willing to playtest it as is, but if it can't be escorted, I think the cost of 9 may be too high.

I think you are correct, I don't think the subject of Mission Selection was brought up. I was more focused on the Spotter role which I think is the units primary function, It's a early war multi-purpose plane. I'll playtest it like it is as well, but I think adding the Mission Selection SA would definitely put it at a solid 9 points.

MISSION SELECTION (F): This unit counts as either a Dive Bomber or a Fighter. (Choose the unit's role when you place during the Air Mission phase)

It doesn't help when using ASW, but could then be aided by Expert Bomber and Expert Dogfighter.

flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	AR 196 DONE May 4, 2019 1:06:30 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on May 4, 2019 1:06:30 GMT Brings an interaction with elite bomber

weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	AR 196 DONE May 4, 2019 23:36:35 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on May 4, 2019 23:36:35 GMT I am not a fan of adding Mission Selection. These planes mostly operated without escort. I would rather see the cost dropped.
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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	AR 196 DONE May 5, 2019 0:55:05 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on May 5, 2019 0:55:05 GMT It wasnt and isnt a primary attack plane. Treating it like a shadowing catalina is appropriate.

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

AR 196 *DONE* May 5, 2019 18:53:08 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on May 5, 2019 18:53:08 GMT

May 5, 2019 0:55:05 GMT flakstruk said:

It wasnt and isnt a primary attack plane. Treating it like a shadowing catalina is appropriate.

Exactly, but I don't think giving it mission selection accomplishes that very well. It's not KISS when you have to make a declaration on placement. We should come up with an SA that gives it some protection as a "lone wolf" rather than trying to force Escort to work with it IMO.

How about this fusion of Lone ASW Hunter and Light Defensive Armament?

Keep Your Distance/Inconspicuous/Safe Distance - If there are no other friendly Aircraft in the same sector as this unit, this unit gets +1 armor this turn.

While trying to come up with a name for this SA (could still be better) I found this cool USN document on Spotter plane control and doctrine.

www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/RADEIGHTA/RADEIGHTA-21.html#D

Last Edit: May 5, 2019 18:53:38 GMT by weedsrock2

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	AR 196 DONE May 6, 2019 1:12:59 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on May 6, 2019 1:12:59 GMT It was fine as is. The impetus is on the km player to ensure air superiority. Its the swing and round abouts of the metagame.

SWO_Daddy
Deck E developer

Posts: 6,016

AR 196 *DONE* May 7, 2019 0:30:32 GMT

Quote

Post by SWO_Daddy on May 7, 2019 0:30:32 GMT

Flak, fair enough, but given the low stats and no eligibility to be escorted, I can't see this at 9. This feels like a 7 to me.

An SA like weeds is proposing might be a reasonable alternative. But if we're going with KISS, I'd just drop the cost.

Last Edit: May 7, 2019 0:32:42 GMT by SWO_Daddy

I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way.
- Captain John Paul Jones

waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

AR 196 *DONE* May 7, 2019 3:35:31 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on May 7, 2019 3:35:31 GMT

You guys are creating some anomaly here;; a blend of Fighter and Patrol Bomber;

putting all the AR 196 models into one unit; Does make for an interesting unit;

But making it to cheap i think districts from previous made units and why they were cost as so.

Although all the values won't scare anybody its offers a lot;

It can strafe like a fighter yet use its ASW value every turn, can the Skua or FM-2

It can go looking for a Dogfight yet Bomb a opportune target without a mission declaration

It can Sea Base ever wonder why the A6M2 is cheaper than the Rufe.

and its second SA is essentially a MG pinpointer

Taking its Fighter or Patrol Bomber values alone would make for a 6 point unit; blending the two

i would think would make for a bit more than that.

Have no idea what you guys will decide, but i think to err on the side of higher is wiser.

flakstruk
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,839

AR 196 *DONE* May 7, 2019 8:18:37 GMT via mobile

Quote

Post by flakstruk on May 7, 2019 8:18:37 GMT

May 7, 2019 0:30:32 GMT SWO_Daddy said:

Flak, fair enough, but given the low stats and no eligibility to be escorted, I can't see this at 9. This feels like a 7 to me.

An SA like weeds is proposing might be a reasonable alternative. But if we're going with KISS, I'd just drop the cost.

I cant see this being more than the rufe at 8. 7 seems reasonable.

au64
Deck E playtester

Posts: 1,847

AR 196 *DONE* May 7, 2019 13:54:31 GMT

Quote

Post by au64 on May 7, 2019 13:54:31 GMT

SO let's compare this to the Rufe...

Stat AR196 Rufe
Country Germany Japan
Year 1939 1942
Cost 9 8
MG 2 2
AA 5 6
Bomb 3 -
ASW 2 -
A/V/HP 4/7/1 5/8/1

Both Have Sea Basing

AR196:
Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Ships roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their main Gunnery attack this turn.

Rufe:
Night Specialist - While in darkness, this unit gets +1 on each search check and ignores darkness attack penalties
Interceptor - If there are no enemy Fighters in the same sector as this unit, this unit rolls one extra attack die when making Antiair attacks against enemy Bombers
-----------------

So the AR196 comes out two years earlier, has the flexibility to use more attacks, but has a weaker AA and A/V/HP. This in my mind comes out about even.

The AR196 also gives the Axis an early war plane with sea basing to go against the Late 298 (French 1939 -9pts - 3/6/1).

Night Specialist and Interceptor are much more limiting from an SA standpoint than spotter is, so spotter easily wins this comparison hands down.

Therefore I think the cost of 9 (no less than 8) is pretty accurate as the plane stands.

Now to see what the playtest comes out as....

Last Edit: May 7, 2019 14:06:09 GMT by au64

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AR 196 DONE

Post by au64 on Apr 7, 2019 0:29:14 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 7, 2019 1:08:29 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 8, 2019 20:28:55 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Apr 29, 2019 23:54:09 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on May 3, 2019 3:28:01 GMT

Post by au64 on May 3, 2019 14:43:35 GMT

Post by flakstruk on May 4, 2019 1:06:30 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on May 4, 2019 23:36:35 GMT

Post by flakstruk on May 5, 2019 0:55:05 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on May 5, 2019 18:53:08 GMT

Post by flakstruk on May 6, 2019 1:12:59 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on May 7, 2019 0:30:32 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on May 7, 2019 3:35:31 GMT

Post by flakstruk on May 7, 2019 8:18:37 GMT

Post by au64 on May 7, 2019 13:54:31 GMT

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