AR 196 *DONE* | Forumini

weedsrock2
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AR 196 *DONE* Mar 29, 2019 20:15:11 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 29, 2019 20:15:11 GMT

I think you were on the right track with those SAs.

Our Air Rescue SAs are similar, but mine avoids the "system memory" problem of remembering where an aircraft was destroyed on the previous turn. Whether it should be worth 2 or 3 VA points is not a big deal IMO. Small VA point awards only rarely make a difference in final scoring in my experience. They are mainly historical "flavor" SAs. The plus side of that is they can be added to a card without a point cost IMO. One could argue an air/sea rescue SA should be on all floatplanes and flying boats. But one could argue Smoke should be on all ships too. So there is no point in getting too wound up about it.

My problem with the Kingfisher is it was only really used for air/sea rescue. By the time the US got into the war the USN was starting to rapidly deploy radar so spotter aircraft weren't used to spot gunfire. I am actually kind of happy the Kingfisher didn't make it into the deck.

Last Edit: Mar 29, 2019 20:22:38 GMT by weedsrock2

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flakstruk
Deck E developer

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AR 196 *DONE* Mar 30, 2019 2:15:48 GMT via mobile

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Post by flakstruk on Mar 30, 2019 2:15:48 GMT

Mar 28, 2019 2:41:36 GMT SWO_Daddy said:

I think an SA like "Spotter" is almost a must. These aircraft could really be game changers for Raiders and when a Raider lost its small supply of scout planes, they usually took a pretty big hit to their tactical effectiveness. In the case of the Arado, I do think the ability should apply to Auxiliaries, even if it means the Germans get a unique SA. It played a significant role in their operations.

Itd apply to things like prince david, chitose and langley. No reason it couldnt be a universal SA just because of the merchant cruisers

weedsrock2
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AR 196 *DONE* Mar 30, 2019 2:57:28 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 30, 2019 2:57:28 GMT

Mar 30, 2019 2:15:48 GMT flakstruk said:

Mar 28, 2019 2:41:36 GMT SWO_Daddy said:

I think an SA like "Spotter" is almost a must. These aircraft could really be game changers for Raiders and when a Raider lost its small supply of scout planes, they usually took a pretty big hit to their tactical effectiveness. In the case of the Arado, I do think the ability should apply to Auxiliaries, even if it means the Germans get a unique SA. It played a significant role in their operations.

Itd apply to things like prince david, chitose and langley. No reason it couldnt be a universal SA just because of the merchant cruisers

Those ships didn't have guns that could shoot that far. That said, I wouldn't get that technical about it anyway. Adding Auxiliaries is fine with me. It is a niche issue.

A modification would be to add the +1 die to range 2 and greater. Probably more accurate.

Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Auxiliaries, Battleships and Cruisers roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their Main Battery this turn.

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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	AR 196 DONE Mar 30, 2019 2:58:08 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 30, 2019 2:58:08 GMT That would make it cleanly "universal" IMO. Maybe we just say Ships?
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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	AR 196 DONE Mar 30, 2019 7:24:57 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Mar 30, 2019 7:24:57 GMT Mar 30, 2019 2:58:08 GMT weedsrock2 said: That would make it cleanly "universal" IMO. Maybe we just say Ships? Yup.

weedsrock2
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AR 196 *DONE* Mar 30, 2019 18:05:35 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 30, 2019 18:05:35 GMT

Mar 30, 2019 7:24:57 GMT flakstruk said:

Mar 30, 2019 2:58:08 GMT weedsrock2 said:

That would make it cleanly "universal" IMO. Maybe we just say Ships?

Yup.

Okay. Thanks. I think this wording will work.

Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Ships roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their Main Battery this turn.

Last Edit: Mar 30, 2019 18:05:55 GMT by weedsrock2

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firesdstny Deck E developer Posts: 1,419	AR 196 DONE Apr 1, 2019 6:08:22 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by firesdstny on Apr 1, 2019 6:08:22 GMT Wouldn't it be Main Gunnery Attack rather than Main Battery. Gotta keep the game language after all. Good SA though.

heavygear
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Posts: 165

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 1, 2019 16:10:36 GMT

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Post by heavygear on Apr 1, 2019 16:10:36 GMT

Hello! hello!

Which variant of Arado 196 are we speaking of here? A2 or A3?

A1: 1938 (20 units) Carried 1MG and 2x50kgs Bombs

A2: 1939 Add 2x20mm and 1 MG rear

A3: 1940 A2 with New Radio equipment and reinforced Structure

A4: 1940 Carried A3 to replace A1 and had and extended autonomy

The Stats you give for armament are uncomplete and are for A5 variant
Armament: 1 x 7.92mm 81Z MG, 2 x 20mm MG FF autocannon, 2 x 50 kg bombs plus 2x7.92mm 81Z MG rear

A2 Stats

manufactured from November, 1939 to September, 1940. Fitted with two MG 20 mm FF guns in the wings, a fixed MG 17, a twin rear MG 15 and 2 50 kg bombs.

A3 Stats

Evolution of the A-2 with new radio equipment and a strengthened structure. Alloctaed to the KüFlGr 706. 339 units manufactured from October 1940

A4 Stats

Catapulting A-3 version built in 24 units from October to December 1940 to replace the A-1.

A5 Stats

Last series manufactured in 46 units with new radio equipment and twin rear 7,9 mm MG 81 Z

There are also some particularity you didn't mention on Ar 196

"The wings, with metallic structure and metal sheet cover, were folding along the fuselage. Aluminium made floats, contained each 300 liters of fuel (400 liters on A-4), a smoke generator, additional ammunitions and rescue food rations. The radio equipment were generally FuG V AU (A-1 and A-2), FuG 10 or 16Z (A-2 and A-3), FuG 16Z or 25a (A-5)."

Early war some Arado did bear French Aeronavale Markings to deceive allies (see below)

Last Edit: Apr 1, 2019 16:24:40 GMT by heavygear

waratsea4
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Posts: 839

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 1, 2019 20:42:23 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 1, 2019 20:42:23 GMT

Just a thought on giving planes of this ilk Shadowing and ASW Pinpoint; not that it was not a function of the plane,
but it should be scaled down.
Shadowing and Pinpoint with the originals was for long range and Loiter aircraft, i think by giving it to lesser planes cheapens the
whole idea.

Giving it a Spotting type SA at a low cost; but limiting the impact make for a more realist and useful unit.

weedsrock2
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AR 196 *DONE* Apr 2, 2019 4:29:39 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 2, 2019 4:29:39 GMT

Apr 1, 2019 20:42:23 GMT waratsea4 said:

Just a thought on giving planes of this ilk Shadowing and ASW Pinpoint; not that it was not a function of the plane,
but it should be scaled down.
Shadowing and Pinpoint with the originals was for long range and Loiter aircraft, i think by giving it to lesser planes cheapens the
whole idea.

Giving it a Spotting type SA at a low cost; but limiting the impact make for a more realist and useful unit.

Good point and I agree.

As to the variant, first, I don't think there is enough difference between them at the resolution of this game. That said, I think the stats for the A2 version cover what we are looking for, and also gives us a plane that was technically available in 1939. But I don't think it is really worth going to the variant level for name on the card, although it wouldn't hurt either I guess.

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waratsea4
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AR 196 *DONE* Apr 2, 2019 5:46:40 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Apr 2, 2019 5:46:40 GMT

Apr 2, 2019 4:29:39 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Apr 1, 2019 20:42:23 GMT waratsea4 said:

Just a thought on giving planes of this ilk Shadowing and ASW Pinpoint; not that it was not a function of the plane,
but it should be scaled down.
Shadowing and Pinpoint with the originals was for long range and Loiter aircraft, i think by giving it to lesser planes cheapens the
whole idea.

Giving it a Spotting type SA at a low cost; but limiting the impact make for a more realist and useful unit.

Good point and I agree.

As to the variant, first, I don't think there is enough difference between them at the resolution of this game. That said, I think the stats for the A2 version cover what we are looking for, and also gives us a plane that was technically available in 1939. But I don't think it is really worth going to the variant level for name on the card, although it wouldn't hurt either I guess.

I do like the Spotter SA; the choice of Aux. BB and CA is all good; but i'd limit it to less ships or just one.
I guess its just me, but i think there should be more separation from the Iconic units and the endless realm of expansion.
SA's should definitely distinguish units like this, but as I said about the Myrt a lot was done with less

heavygear
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Posts: 165

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 2, 2019 10:35:32 GMT

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Post by heavygear on Apr 2, 2019 10:35:32 GMT

I think of two options A2/A3 or A4

considering AR 196 history A2 and A4 didn't have the same mission

The A4 was spotting for Cruisers and Battleships and I think deserve

- spotting Gunnery or spotting Gunfire SA.

The A2/A3 role was coastal defense and air patrol hence not at all the same role and is more
- ASW Pinpointer
- New SA Scramble Air Defense: At the end of the turn if this unit was in the same sector of an unsunk enemy ship and was not aborted you may remove one rearming token from a friendly air unit (need some work, but here is the concept)

Last Edit: Apr 2, 2019 10:39:13 GMT by heavygear

waratsea4
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Posts: 839

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 2, 2019 18:07:51 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 2, 2019 18:07:51 GMT

Apr 2, 2019 10:35:32 GMT heavygear said:

I think of two options A2/A3 or A4

considering AR 196 history A2 and A4 didn't have the same mission

The A4 was spotting for Cruisers and Battleships and I think deserve

- spotting Gunnery or spotting Gunfire SA.

The A2/A3 role was coastal defense and air patrol hence not at all the same role and is more
- ASW Pinpointer
- New SA Scramble Air Defense: At the end of the turn if this unit was in the same sector of an unsunk enemy ship and was not aborted you may remove one rearming token from a friendly air unit (need some work, but here is the concept)

You are correct on that, but i think as RB has done these teams broaden the scope of the unit without getting into particulars of a model or refit.
Pennsylvania comes to mind best values earliest year of entry, never liked it, but it is what it is.
Thats why i think you have pay more attention to SA's, give it a little of what it can do without going overboard.
Just the way i see things, i guess i will be what the majority wants it to be.

heavygear
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Posts: 165

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 3, 2019 14:46:07 GMT

Quote

Post by heavygear on Apr 3, 2019 14:46:07 GMT

Apr 2, 2019 18:07:51 GMT waratsea4 said:

Apr 2, 2019 10:35:32 GMT heavygear said:

I think of two options A2/A3 or A4

considering AR 196 history A2 and A4 didn't have the same mission

The A4 was spotting for Cruisers and Battleships and I think deserve

- spotting Gunnery or spotting Gunfire SA.

The A2/A3 role was coastal defense and air patrol hence not at all the same role and is more
- ASW Pinpointer
- New SA Scramble Air Defense: At the end of the turn if this unit was in the same sector of an unsunk enemy ship and was not aborted you may remove one rearming token from a friendly air unit (need some work, but here is the concept)

You are correct on that, but i think as RB has done these teams broaden the scope of the unit without getting into particulars of a model or refit.
Pennsylvania comes to mind best values earliest year of entry, never liked it, but it is what it is.
Thats why i think you have pay more attention to SA's, give it a little of what it can do without going overboard.
Just the way i see things, i guess i will be what the majority wants it to be.

Yes I known, that pose some problems with certain ships hence RB renaming ships for a different version (example Sho-go Yamato)

As planes are more subject than ships to change of SA and armament depending of their variant/role during war, we could fix that from the begining

Last Edit: Apr 3, 2019 14:47:16 GMT by heavygear

weedsrock2
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Posts: 5,199

AR 196 *DONE* Apr 4, 2019 1:26:20 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 4, 2019 1:26:20 GMT

I would rather not get that specific. To me the real challenge here is to make it a playable unit. It is so easy to make these bookmarks out of these "peripheral" units.

As for history, the book "The Arado Ar 196 - A Detailed Guide to the Eyes of the Kriegsmarine says every battleship in the Kriegsmarine had an A-1 aboard by the end of 1939. Graf Spee had 2X A-1s on board. I think they were assigned as they were built regardless of variant. Since the BBs all had V-1s, it may be that they didn't get later variants until one needed to be replaced.

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AR 196 DONE

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 29, 2019 20:15:11 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Mar 30, 2019 2:15:48 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 30, 2019 2:57:28 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 30, 2019 2:58:08 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Mar 30, 2019 7:24:57 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 30, 2019 18:05:35 GMT

Post by firesdstny on Apr 1, 2019 6:08:22 GMT

Post by heavygear on Apr 1, 2019 16:10:36 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 1, 2019 20:42:23 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 2, 2019 4:29:39 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 2, 2019 5:46:40 GMT

Post by heavygear on Apr 2, 2019 10:35:32 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 2, 2019 18:07:51 GMT

Post by heavygear on Apr 3, 2019 14:46:07 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 4, 2019 1:26:20 GMT

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