Looks okay to me. The only issue I see is that it is a pretty ordinary unit after using the Once per game Suppress Sub SA.(Although ASW 3 is always good if your opponent has subs.) I wonder if it really needs to be once per game since the second attack is nerfed a bit? Maybe play test it to see? If your opponent has a sub swarm it will be a hard SA to avoid. But if the fleet build only has a few subs it can be negated although it would restrict concentration of force. Just noodling out loud.
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Perhaps splitting hairs, and I think I know the intent here, but does Suppress Sub work if this plane has been aborted? I've run into this nuance in night games where units fail their placement roll and then are treated as aborted in the sector they were headed to, in effect limiting the number of planes than can still get into that sector. Aborted planes don't return to the land base until the end of the turn. I think the intent here is that if this plane remains unaborted at the end of the air attack phase, then it gets to move and attack another sub. Perhaps this wording for clarity?
SUPPRESS SUB - Once per game, at the end of the second player's Air Attack step, if this unit has not been aborted or shot down, you may place it in an adjacent sector that contains an enemy Submarine and make an immediate ASW attack, hitting on a 5 or higher only.
Perhaps splitting hairs, and I think I know the intent here, but does Suppress Sub work if this plane has been aborted? I've run into this nuance in night games where units fail their placement roll and then are treated as aborted in the sector they were headed to, in effect limiting the number of planes than can still get into that sector. Aborted planes don't return to the land base until the end of the turn. I think the intent here is that if this plane remains unaborted at the end of the air attack phase, then it gets to move and attack another sub. Perhaps this wording for clarity?
SUPPRESS SUB - Once per game, at the end of the second player's Air Attack step, if this unit has not been aborted or shot down, you may place it in an adjacent sector that contains an enemy Submarine and make an immediate ASW attack, hitting on a 5 or higher only.
That would be okay with me. "not been aborted or destroyed" is the correct terminology I think. It saves us having to post a clarification.
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LOITER: Rearming counters aren't placed on this unit during the Air Return step.
LIGHT DEFENSIVE ARMAMENT: Whenever an enemy Fighter attacks this unit during the Air Defense phase, this unit gets +1 armor this turn.
SUPPRESS SUB - At the end of the second player's Air Attack step, if this unit has not been aborted or destroyed, you may place this unit in an adjacent sector that contains an enemy Submarine and make an immediate ASW attack, hitting on a 5 or higher only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I took this unit (actually 4) against a German Sub swarm. Against the German swarm I would put two of these with an escort into a sector with a sub and then place the other two with an escort in an adjacent sector with a sub.
Utilizing the Canso's SA, it allowed me to make 8 attacks (4 regular and 4 with Suppress SA) against each sub. Granted the ASW attacks were not great values (I didn't have a boost), but if you roll that many times, chances are (and were) good that you would eventually hit and sink a sub.
The impacts of doing this resulted in less TT dice being rolled because of the ASW attacks, and the German player had to make a choice of separating his subs or knowing that we would be under ASW Threat or worse getting two of his subs attacked 8 times in a turn.
The Canso's managed to destroy 3 U-66s (3/6/2) and crippled another during the game; 2 Canso's got shot down.
Does it feel over powered? That's 28 points spent to be able to do that, coupled with some unlucky rolls by your opponent and maybe some beneficial sub placement?
There's a couple options. Make suppress sub once per game
Make it only useable if you haven't made any other attacks
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Does it feel over powered? That's 28 points spent to be able to do that, coupled with some unlucky rolls by your opponent and maybe some beneficial sub placement?
There's a couple options. Make suppress sub once per game
Make it only useable if you haven't made any other attacks
I don't think it felt overpowered, I specifically played it against a German Sub swarm (the Germans fielded 10 subs). Bear in mind that I don't think it will come up that often, and the chances of hitting a Armor 3 sub with 2 ASW dice is about 8% (you have to roll a 6 - 16%, and the other die has to be 4+).
Most of the crippling hits were on the first attack, the SA made it easier to finish off a crippled sub in subsequent turns (2 armor vs. 3 on a U-66).
Bear in mind the playtest I did was in a Canso's dream environment (against 10 subs and two land-based fighters), so it should have done well.
As a note the Allies beat the Germans pretty soundly this game.
Why did the Germans get beat so soundly? Were the torpedo rolls below average? It is so hard to judge a fleet build that is highly dependent on torpedo hits. Those kinds of builds seem to be either "very hot" or "very not."
Anyway, it sounds like you are okay with it as is. Making the SA once per game is the "safe" option, but I really hate to do that unless it is really necessary. I was thinking the nerf to a 5 or better would do the trick. As you said, it is hard for 2 dice ASW attacks to actually get a hit.
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Why did the Germans get beat so soundly? Were the torpedo rolls below average? It is so hard to judge a fleet build that is highly dependent on torpedo hits. Those kinds of builds seem to be either "very hot" or "very not."
Anyway, it sounds like you are okay with it as is. Making the SA once per game is the "safe" option, but I really hate to do that unless it is really necessary. I was thinking the nerf to a 5 or better would do the trick. As you said, it is hard for 2 dice ASW attacks to actually get a hit.
Between the Canso's and the 6 destroyers the German sub Fleet was almost always under ASW threat. The Torps were running pretty much average (1 hit in 6 rolls). Remember the Canso's got to come out EVERY TURN thanks to Loiter, this unit is a German Sub Build's worst nightmare.
I think that the unit is fine, but was trying to find and test a scenario that I thought they could be 'broken'. The best I could come up with was against a German Sub build, and the Canso's WERE very powerful... but lets face it; how often (other than against some jerk at Origins last year) are you going to face that many subs in a 200 point game?
In most games you're probably going to face 2-3 subs which is easier to keep them separated, thus nerfing this SA.
Keeping it at 5 or higher would not affect it at night as fours don't count anyway so what about putting -1 to dice roll instead. If it only had two ASW dice then the former would be ok but with three it would needs two sixes for most subs and maybe if not keeping to a OPG ability that would be better. In my experience these are likely to be out more in darkness.
Just quick scanned up to date with this thread so I don't if this has already been mentioned.
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