Clarification-I have an objection to several of the units created in Deck 4, but I'm satisfied that we created Deck 5 for the guys that are interested in the minor countries and neutrals. However, another deck like #5 will not appeal to me. I'm not the kind of individual who needs every ship/plane from the WW2 era to play the game. However, for those that want that, knock yourself out. What would concern me is the creation of future decks that get more creative with SA's and stats that impact the game with power creep like I see in Deck 4.
12-7 I'm not trying to start an argument but without making a card for every single ship or plane and without expanding on minor nations how would we be able to continue making decks?
To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high. -In Flanders Fields. John McCrea
12-7 I'm not trying to start an argument but without making a card for every single ship or plane and without expanding on minor nations how would we be able to continue making decks?
I agree, you wouldn't. The game doesn't need a card for every ship and plane, you just need cards to provide variety to play the game. If you want to create a card for every unit, go ahead, I don't need it and neither does anyone else to play the game. Unfortunately, what happens, some members of the development team feel the need to leave their mark on the game and develop units that become gamey, whether intentional or not. As long as that is avoided, and I have my concerns that it can based on past performance, I'm fine with it, but I don't need it. I can support units that provide game balanace between the two sides, but I object when we start introducing units like Midway, jets, USS Ward, etc. If you want reprints of existing units with the name of sister ships so you have a card for each, that is fine, but I wouldn't buy it.
I would suggest optional units/decks for those players so that they are not considered as a part of the basic game.
12-7 I'm not trying to start an argument but without making a card for every single ship or plane and without expanding on minor nations how would we be able to continue making decks?
I agree, you wouldn't. The game doesn't need a card for every ship and plane, you just need cards to provide variety to play the game. If you want to create a card for every unit, go ahead, I don't need it and neither does anyone else to play the game. Unfortunately, what happens, some members of the development team feel the need to leave their mark on the game and develop units that become gamey, whether intentional or not. As long as that is avoided, and I have my concerns that it can based on past performance, I'm fine with it, but I don't need it. I can support units that provide game balanace between the two sides, but I object when we start introducing units like Midway, jets, USS Ward, etc. If you want reprints of existing units with the name of sister ships so you have a card for each, that is fine, but I wouldn't buy it.
I would suggest optional units/decks for those players so that they are not considered as a part of the basic game.
Yeah but at this point there's very little to make if we're not making sisters, variants or fantasy
To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high. -In Flanders Fields. John McCrea
Deliberately fracturing the community we have left with 'optional' team decks seems counterproductive. Its legit or its not.
Perhaps we need a black list nomination to go with the set list nominations to give people and additional level if in put. Not in the sense of a total binding blacklist, but as a guide
I'm just happy decks are still being made. I would be thrilled with an all DD deck honestly. Love the sub decks Swizzle is working on.
I dont believe there is a shortage of units that precludes more decks (more than one) but the issue is going to be interest in the community to carry development and the expense of printing.
I was talking to some people about a 'all reprints deck' a few months ago. Producing sister or operational cards for units that have a Wotc sculpt available. I think that could work well to keep cards coming
I have a great idea. Since we have an incomplete ABC "what if" theatre at the moment, it would be nice to provide a somewhat balanced unit selection for the ABC forces. Just saying.
Or we can go for more "top 5" DD or Cruiser variant.
Being fairly new to the forum, I was curious, how much play do the minors/neutrals cards get? I understand that they have a cool factor, but would it get played as much as a larger nation would? I think we are all looking for new cards to put into play.
I think the 80:20 rule works pretty well here. The minors/neutrals get 20% or less of the play time in any tabletop venue I have played. We have to write scenarios that force their use to get them in play. We also generally play "theater specific" rather than nation specific just to encourage the "local minors" in the theater. But they still get little voluntary use. I personally have always preferred to keep them at 20-25% maximum in a deck. They get a lot of vocal support, but not much play. I can see it in the number of people that enter for my free Shapeway's giveaways too. The neutrals and minors consistently get fewer participants than the "Big 5." That is somewhat confounded by the fact that the big "rares" get more participation than the "uncommons" or "commons" (except aircraft), but the pattern is still easy to see.
The challenge now is we have added a lot of minor nations over the course of the sets and decks, and their particular fans want to see a unit from their favorite minor in each deck. Even giving just one card to each minor/neutral nation now adds up to a fair amount of cards. That is why every minor nation doesn't get a unit in every deck. It would impossible to flesh out the newest minor nation entries without making a "non-commercially acceptable" deck with too many minors IMO.
The other "side effect" of minor nations is they are mostly small units like destroyers, subs, minelayers, and little-known, (usually) subpar performing aircraft or aircraft purchased from other nations. So they take up a lot of the "common" slots which means the majors get fewer of the small stuff relative to their fleet sizes. That issue prevented RB from getting a second submarine into the Royal Navy in his sets. He kept pushing the RN sub (it was going to be Upholder) back to a later set to make room for a sub unit to fill out a minor nation like Greece and Poland. (Yes, he stated that in his blog later on.)
It's a juggling act with no perfect outcome.
But for this reason the "Big 5" still have a LOT of "common" units - destroyers and the like - that can be done. And the US and Britain still have a lot of cruisers too. Even the IJN still has a number of cruisers remaining. But the capital ships are almost tapped out, and those are the most interesting to the most people.
So this is a refinement of the "all WotC reprint" list based on suggestions. I especially liked dropping a Canadian DD for an ASW patrol bomber.
Still one slot remaining. Preferably for the Axis I am thinking.
Australia
1. HMAS Barcoo - River class DD (HMS Swale reprint) 2. HMAS Hobart - CL - (Sydney reprint)
Canada
3. B-24 Liberator, PBY-5 Catalina, or Sunderland patrol bomber 4. HMCS St. Clair - Town/Clemson class (Edsall reprint) 5. HMCS Ottawa - G-class (Vasilissa Olga/ZG3 reprint) 6. HMCS Athabaskan - Tribal class DD (Arunta/Haida/Cossack reprint)
France
7. D790 carrier fighter with Escort (D.520 reprint) 8. Primauguet CL (La Motte Picquet reprint) 9. Albatros or Epervier - Aigle class DD (Milan reprint) 10. Le Tonnant or Le Glorieux sub ( Casabianca reprint) 11. Foch or Colbert CA - Suffren sister 12. Le Malin or Le Triomphant DD - (Le Terrible sister)
Netherlands
13. Evertsen or Kortenear DD - (Witte de With reprint)
New Zealand
14. F4U Corsair - land fighter
Poland
15. Grom - Grom class DD (Blyskawica reprint)
United Kingdom
16. FAA Tarpon - Avenger Torpedo Bomber, FAA Corsair - fighter 17. HMS Dainty - D class (St. Laurent reprint) 18. HMS Hotspur - H class (Vasilissa Olga/ZG3 reprint) 19 HMS Jervis - J class or HMS Kelly - K class DD (Javelin/Van Galen/Nizam reprint) 20. HMS Howe or Anson - King George V class (KGV/Prince of Wales reprint) 21. HMS Indomitable - Indomitable class - (Illustrious reprint) 22. HMS Naiad - Dido class CL (Euryalus sister) 23. HMS Norfolk, Berwick or Cornwall CA - (Canberra/Australia/Kent reprint) 24. HMS Revenge - Revenge class (Royal Oak/Arkhangelisk reprint) 25. HMS Sunflower or HMS Godetia - Flower class corvette (Sackville reprint) 26. HMS Southampton/Glasgow CL - Southhampton class (Sheffield reprint)
United States
27. F6F-5 Hellcat - Fighter-bomber (F6F-3 reprint) 28. SS Stephen Hopkins - Liberty Ship (Jeremiah O'Brien reprint) 29. USS Boston CA - Baltimore class (Baltimore/Quincy reprint) 30. USS Card or USS Liscombe Bay - CVE (St.Lo, Fencer, Guadalcanal reprint) 31. USS Guam - Alaska class CA 32. USS Indiana BB - (Massachusetts reprint) 33. USS Minneapolis CA - New Orleans class (San Francisco reprint) 34. USS Nashville or USS Savannah - Brooklyn class CL (Boise/Phoenix reprint) 35. USS Patterson/Blue/Ralph Talbot DD - Bagley class - (Bagley reprint) 36. USS S-44 - S-class sub - (S-37 reprint) 37. USS Tang - Balao class, or USS Harder - Gato class sub (Barb/Archerfish reprint) 38. USS Ticonderoga or USS Franklin CV - Essex class - (Intrepid/Essex reprint)
44. Vesihiisi - sub (similar to German Type VII - U-47/552 reprint)
Germany
45. Altmark/Uckermark - auxiliary supply ship (Nordmark reprint) 46. Bf-109G, Me 109K,Me-109T 47. Hindenburg - H-40 BB (FdG sister) 48. U-96, U-377 or U-995 - Type VIIC or U-77 or U-99 Type VIIB U-boat - (U-47/552 reprint) 49. Z9 Wolfgang Zenker or Z12 Erich Giese - 1934A type DD (Karl Gaster/Hans Ludemann reprint) 50. Z36 - 1936B type DD - (Z32 reprint) 51. Uj202 DD - (Antilope reprint)
Italy
52. Antoniotto Usodimare -Navigatore class (Luca Tarigo/Ugolino Vivaldi reprint) 53. Artiglieri - Soldati class DD - (Ascari/Camicia Nere reprint) 54. Attilio Regolo - Capitani Romani class CL (Capitani Romani reprint) 55. Bartolomeo Colleoni - Guissano class CL - (Giovanni delle Bande Nere reprint) 56. Italia BB - Post armistice Vittorio Veneto (Vittorio Veneto/Littorio/Roma reprint) 57. SM.79 II or III (SM .79 reprint) 58. Guglielmo Marconi - Marconi class sub (Leonardo da Vinci reprint)
Japan
59. Amatsukaze or Arashi - Kagero class DD (Yukikaze etc reprint) 60. Ashigara - CA (Myoko/Nachi/Haguro reprint) 61. Chokai CA (Atago reprint) 62. I-58 submarine (I-19/I-25/I-26 reprint) 63. Kako CA (Furutaka reprint) 64. B6N1 “Jill” torpedo bomber (B6N2 reprint) 65. Noshiro - Agano class CL (Agano/Yahagi reprint) 66. Kii - #111 4th Yamato class BB (30% completed) (Yamato/Musashi reprint) 67. Taiho-Kai (planned) sister - CV (Taiho reprint) 68. Take - Matsu class DD (Matsu reprint)
Theres a near match fantasy condetorri for the italians ud forgotton about too "Under the 1939-1940 program the building of two very close to 5th "Condottieri" series cruisers (Constanzo Ciano and Venezia) was provided, however in June, 1940 they were excluded from the program. High machinery power and transition to new 90mm AA guns and a superstructure of the hardly changed form should become the basic difference of these cruisers"(from navypedia)
Theres a near match fantasy condetorri for the italians ud forgotton about too "Under the 1939-1940 program the building of two very close to 5th "Condottieri" series cruisers (Constanzo Ciano and Venezia) was provided, however in June, 1940 they were excluded from the program. High machinery power and transition to new 90mm AA guns and a superstructure of the hardly changed form should become the basic difference of these cruisers"(from navypedia)
Canada has four slots simply because I could think of WotC proxies for them. I agree one should probably drop out. Need a good suggestion.
That cruiser sounds like a possibility.
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