P-38F Lightning *Done*

weedsrock2
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 6, 2021 3:11:58 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 6, 2021 3:11:58 GMT

I wouldn't have an objection to an additional SA. But I don't think it should be Escort. That will totally kill off the P-38G IMO. And would bump this to a cost of 10 which is pretty high for an AA 7 fighter. I really don't want to create another Corsair. I think that plane is broken with a capitol B even at 14 pts.

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	P-38F Lightning Done Mar 6, 2021 3:46:05 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Mar 6, 2021 3:46:05 GMT Theres stuff like scramble defence, or rough field operations that allow it to rearm faster. Akin but not the same as ther other copy

weedsrock2
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 7, 2021 1:04:48 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 7, 2021 1:04:48 GMT

We have been doing some work in the Dev thread that has highlighted to me that this aircraft should not be a bomb 9. The P-38 was not optimized to be a bomber, and a bomb 9 score on a fighter in 1942 is power creep in this game. I think we should back it down to bomb 8.

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waratsea4
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 9, 2021 5:47:08 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 9, 2021 5:47:08 GMT

Mar 6, 2021 3:11:58 GMT weedsrock2 said:

I wouldn't have an objection to an additional SA. But I don't think it should be Escort. That will totally kill off the P-38G IMO. And would bump this to a cost of 10 which is pretty high for an AA 7 fighter. I really don't want to create another Corsair. I think that plane is broken with a capitol B even at 14 pts.

8 bomb factor seems reasonable; Not sure why your so against Escort; Speaking of Land Fighters and not carrier based, we all know thats a different animal.

Every 5 to 7 point fighter is your everyday go to escort or unique SA . When you start entering 8-9-10 pts they have that special go to need;;;

The 10 pointers are advanced fighters or 3MG - 9AA - 7-9-1, the 2 8pointers are close to this unit, but do reflect the lower cost.

I think you can see the three 9 pointers really measure up to this unit The Dap Beaufighter is a near sister, the 190A is advanced with a 3MG 8 AA 7-9-1

and the P-38g is a far superior fighter, Excellent Endurance, Interceptor 2, 7-9-1 line. If your in need of an Escort just go for the 5 pointer not any of these.

The dual purpose does give it more table appeal.

If your looking at the 11pts I can see some concern, but I see those as a bit high especially for lower pt builds.

au64
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 10, 2021 20:01:44 GMT

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Post by au64 on Mar 10, 2021 20:01:44 GMT

I don't think that Weedsrock2 is against Escort... it's just that if we give this unit Escort it pretty much ends the P-38G making it a bookmark.

P-38G
Land-Based Fighter
Cost: 9
AA: 7
MG: 3
A/V/HP: 7/9/1
Year: 1943
SAs:
Interceptor 2, Excellent Endurance, Escort

So in essence if you want the pure fighter escort/interceptor you go with the P-38G. If you want the utility of a fighter to also drop bombs and do damage to ships you go with the P-38E. Both have the same cost and basic stats... it's just the difference and preference you want in the role of the aircraft. Also the P-38E shows up a year earlier (1942 vs. 1943). Heck, if you take one of each the P38-G can escort the P-38E as a bomber, which is kind of cool.

weedsrock2
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 11, 2021 1:08:41 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 11, 2021 1:08:41 GMT

Mar 10, 2021 20:01:44 GMT au64 said:

I don't think that Weedsrock2 is against Escort... it's just that if we give this unit Escort it pretty much ends the P-38G making it a bookmark.

P-38G
Land-Based Fighter
Cost: 9
AA: 7
MG: 3
A/V/HP: 7/9/1
Year: 1943
SAs:
Interceptor 2, Excellent Endurance, Escort

So in essence if you want the pure fighter escort/interceptor you go with the P-38G. If you want the utility of a fighter to also drop bombs and do damage to ships you go with the P-38E. Both have the same cost and basic stats... it's just the difference and preference you want in the role of the aircraft. Also the P-38E shows up a year earlier (1942 vs. 1943). Heck, if you take one of each the P38-G can escort the P-38E as a bomber, which is kind of cool.

This.

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hmsartemis
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 11, 2021 3:31:01 GMT via mobile

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Post by hmsartemis on Mar 11, 2021 3:31:01 GMT

It seems to me fighter bombers generally do not get escort along with bombing values, from the original game Corsair, CB-2001, and Beaufighter, along with the FW-190A3/U3 form the expanded decks. The exception is the firefly. .

Otherwise I like the card at 9 points, seems pretty useful and versatile.

waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 11, 2021 3:51:03 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 11, 2021 3:51:03 GMT

I guess you both didn't read what i said, It's really puzzling on how we look at units or their impact.

You can reason all you want, the two P-38 do not replace one another if they both have Escort;

Escort is the essence of a fighter, most at a low cost;; paying a higher cost you have to have more.

To belabor the point between the p-38's the one's unique value is endurance and core strength the other fighter bomber, simple choice.

Who's kidding who if your looking for Escort the two P-38's are the last units to look at.

Some of the planes in this deck so far have had a lot of latitude Jake and Walrus for two.

Units should have multiple functions if they qualify, if not for design quality than reality, this planes fits both.

In ESSENCE as you say their are many USN planes better at either Bombing or Escorting, you really don't have ONE that does both.

Whats a pure fighter, in this naval game, i'll take my chances with all the cheap Escorts i can muster along with Defend the Flat Top's, while you can spend

all the points you want on Advanced Fighters.

weedsrock2
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 11, 2021 5:11:02 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 11, 2021 5:11:02 GMT

Mar 11, 2021 3:51:03 GMT waratsea4 said:

I guess you both didn't read what i said, It's really puzzling on how we look at units or their impact.

You can reason all you want, the two P-38 do not replace one another if they both have Escort;

Escort is the essence of a fighter, most at a low cost;; paying a higher cost you have to have more.

To belabor the point between the p-38's the one's unique value is endurance and core strength the other fighter bomber, simple choice.

Who's kidding who if your looking for Escort the two P-38's are the last units to look at.

Some of the planes in this deck so far have had a lot of latitude Jake and Walrus for two.

Units should have multiple functions if they qualify, if not for design quality than reality, this planes fits both.

In ESSENCE as you say their are many USN planes better at either Bombing or Escorting, you really don't have ONE that does both.

Whats a pure fighter, in this naval game, i'll take my chances with all the cheap Escorts i can muster along with Defend the Flat Top's, while you can spend

all the points you want on Advanced Fighters.

Well, I definitely don't think ALL fighters should get Escort. That just turns them all into "gray cards." I prefer to see some differentiation in roles and abilities. In this case I disagree that Endurance vs bomb ability is enough. There has always been a push to put Escort on almost every fighter and I think that is a mistake.

And please don't say that I didn't read what you said. I definitely did. I just disagree.

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,839	P-38F Lightning Done Mar 11, 2021 8:06:25 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Mar 11, 2021 8:06:25 GMT Theres already a p38 with escort. Thats really end of the story

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	P-38F Lightning Done Mar 11, 2021 20:29:07 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 11, 2021 20:29:07 GMT Flying Swiss Army knives are expensive, and the biggest knock on the old P-38 is cost.
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waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 15, 2021 15:35:09 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 15, 2021 15:35:09 GMT

Mar 11, 2021 5:11:02 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Mar 11, 2021 3:51:03 GMT waratsea4 said:

I guess you both didn't read what i said, It's really puzzling on how we look at units or their impact.

You can reason all you want, the two P-38 do not replace one another if they both have Escort;

Escort is the essence of a fighter, most at a low cost;; paying a higher cost you have to have more.

To belabor the point between the p-38's the one's unique value is endurance and core strength the other fighter bomber, simple choice.

Who's kidding who if your looking for Escort the two P-38's are the last units to look at.

Some of the planes in this deck so far have had a lot of latitude Jake and Walrus for two.

Units should have multiple functions if they qualify, if not for design quality than reality, this planes fits both.

In ESSENCE as you say their are many USN planes better at either Bombing or Escorting, you really don't have ONE that does both.

Whats a pure fighter, in this naval game, i'll take my chances with all the cheap Escorts i can muster along with Defend the Flat Top's, while you can spend

all the points you want on Advanced Fighters.

Well, I definitely don't think ALL fighters should get Escort. That just turns them all into "gray cards." I prefer to see some differentiation in roles and abilities. In this case I disagree that Endurance vs bomb ability is enough. There has always been a push to put Escort on almost every fighter and I think that is a mistake.

And please don't say that I didn't read what you said. I definitely did. I just disagree.

Well, I definitely don't think ALL fighters should get Escort. That just turns them all into "gray cards." I prefer to see some differentiation in roles and abilities. In this case I disagree that Endurance vs bomb ability is enough. There has always been a push to put Escort on almost every fighter and I think that is a mistake.

And please don't say that I didn't read what you said. I definitely did. I just disagree.

Sorry you took it the wrong way, poor choice of words on my part.

Yes we do disagree, i also don't think every fighter has be to an Escort, but what ever model P-38 you design that unit was built to an escort.

It also a little more than Endurance vs Bombs the G's got the defensive line and multi SA's; this one SA's more or less just describe its use of values.

I thought it would be interesting to give the USN a land Bomb/ Escort something new for them, not a lot of options left, and a very interesting unit for use.

No matter whats to come it pretty reasonable to say the P-38g just doesn't have the juice for use. To me if it didn't have endurance I'd can it.

ticat1
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P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 16, 2021 12:56:29 GMT via mobile

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Post by ticat1 on Mar 16, 2021 12:56:29 GMT

If we're looking to add an SA in keeping with the flavour of this variant, i'd suggest either of the following. I'm partial to a Bomb version of Battery Silencer

BATTERY SILENCER: This unit rolls one extra attack die when making Gunnery attacks against Shore Batteries and Installations.

FLAK SUPPRESSION: At the end of Air Mission phase, you may choose a local enemy Ship. If you do, that Ship gets -1 on each attack die when making Antiair attacks this turn, and this unit can't make any attacks this turn.

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au64
Deck E playtester

Posts: 1,847

P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 16, 2021 15:17:15 GMT

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Post by au64 on Mar 16, 2021 15:17:15 GMT

I don't think anyone is pushing for an additional SA on the unit (except for waratsea4 wanting Escort on the unit).

waratsea4 - So am I understanding you correctly in that even if the unit were to have Escort... you'd can it (i.e not play it) unless it had Excellent Endurance?

waratsea4
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Posts: 839

P-38F Lightning *Done* Mar 16, 2021 20:28:04 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 16, 2021 20:28:04 GMT

Mar 16, 2021 15:17:15 GMT au64 said:

I don't think anyone is pushing for an additional SA on the unit (except for waratsea4 wanting Escort on the unit).

waratsea4 - So am I understanding you correctly in that even if the unit were to have Escort... you'd can it (i.e not play it) unless it had Excellent Endurance?

No I was talking about the P-38G; You've read what players have always thought of that unit.

To begin with many player in general are out of favor with the SA Interceptor, so even for its Escort Special Ability their are some many USN fighters better suited for it;;

So I always believed If you want it for that Extra Turn it was the only USN fighter to go to.

My believe is THIS unit with Fighter Escort is unique the USN arsenal;; its the first USN land based dive bomber, [optional] so giving it an SA like Escort

you have a valuable second usage, bombing may not always be an option in a particuar turn.

Would any player take either one of the P-38's for its Escort SA only i think not;;; Their may be other SA ideas, but this plane was given birth with the idea of Escort.

Last Edit: Mar 16, 2021 20:28:59 GMT by waratsea4

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P-38F Lightning Done

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 6, 2021 3:11:58 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Mar 6, 2021 3:46:05 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 7, 2021 1:04:48 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 9, 2021 5:47:08 GMT

Post by au64 on Mar 10, 2021 20:01:44 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 11, 2021 1:08:41 GMT

Post by hmsartemis on Mar 11, 2021 3:31:01 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 11, 2021 3:51:03 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 11, 2021 5:11:02 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Mar 11, 2021 8:06:25 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 11, 2021 20:29:07 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 15, 2021 15:35:09 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Mar 16, 2021 12:56:29 GMT

Post by au64 on Mar 16, 2021 15:17:15 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 16, 2021 20:28:04 GMT

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