M-Class light cruiser - München *Done*

brigman Forumini Admiral Posts: 14,196	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 11, 2020 19:39:27 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by brigman on Jul 11, 2020 19:39:27 GMT Tough Cruiser?

SWO_Daddy
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 11, 2020 19:58:32 GMT

Quote

Post by SWO_Daddy on Jul 11, 2020 19:58:32 GMT

Jul 11, 2020 19:36:24 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Escort Killer, Damage Control and Sprint would make a really fine light cruiser IMO. It also gets the cost out of the destroyer range (not counting long lancers) and I think that is good - probably an 11 plus or minus?

I agree. Tough Cruiser would also work.

Last Edit: Jul 11, 2020 19:58:54 GMT by SWO_Daddy

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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 11, 2020 23:18:08 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 11, 2020 23:18:08 GMT Yeah, that would fit. Tough Cruiser 1 - Whenever an enemy Destroyer or Fighter makes a Gunnery attack against this unit, this unit gets +1 armor against that attack.
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weedsrock2
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 11, 2020 23:34:52 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 11, 2020 23:34:52 GMT

Looking like this right now.

M-class Light Cruiser - München?
Commissioned: Not completed
Decommissioned: Not completed
Displacement: 7,800 tons standard
Length(OA): 600 ft, 4 in
Beam: 55 ft, 9 in
Speed: 35.5 kts
Armor: belt 1.25 to 2 in (30-50mm), deck 0.75 to 1.25 in (20-35mm) (Same as previous light cruiser classes)
Armament: 8 x 5.9 in (4 x 2), 4 x 3.5 in (2 x 2) AA, 8 x 37 mm AA (4 x 2), 4 x 20 mm AA (4 x 1), 8 x 21 in TT (2 x 4)
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Stat proposal

"M"-class Light Cruiser - München?
Year: 1941? (Previous light cruisers completed 2 years after keel laid.)
Type: Cruiser
Cost: ?
Speed: 2
MG: 7/7/6/5 (See stat guidelines Ajax/Sydney)
AA: 7
TT: 2/1?
A/VA/HP: 3/9/3

Escort Killer - This unit can make two Gunnery attacks against separate targets during your Surface Attack phase if at least one of the targets is a Destroyer.

Sprint - Once per game, at the beginning of your Sea Movement step, you can declare you're using Sprint. If you do, roll a die. On a 4 or higher, this unit gets +1 speed this turn.

Tough Cruiser 1 - Whenever an enemy Destroyer or Fighter makes a Gunnery attack against this unit, this unit gets +1 armor against that attack.

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Last Edit: Jul 11, 2020 23:35:07 GMT by weedsrock2

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SWO_Daddy Deck E developer Posts: 6,016	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 12, 2020 1:31:13 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by SWO_Daddy on Jul 12, 2020 1:31:13 GMT I like it.
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mnnorthstars
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,324

M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 12, 2020 2:15:25 GMT

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Post by mnnorthstars on Jul 12, 2020 2:15:25 GMT

Except Escort Killer isn’t justified. On Savoia it’s a stand in for 6 4” guns. On Kent it’s a stand in for 4 4” guns. On the M you’re looking at 4 3.5” guns. Same guns as Émile Bertin which gets no gun SA. Same as Voroshilov with 6 3.9” guns, and York and the Leanders don’t get credit for 4 4” guns. Bande Nere gets nothing for 6 3.9” guns. Kinugasa has 4 4.7” guns. Atago has 8 5” guns.

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waratsea4
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Posts: 839

M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 12, 2020 23:59:32 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Jul 12, 2020 23:59:32 GMT

I think for game reasoning Escort Killer speaks good for this; 2 SA's is really enough, but if we must go three;\\

I guess so be it.

Justifying this SA on this unit comparing to other cruisers Armament is reasonable!!

Compare the German 88 to the Italian and British AA guns; Superior rate of fire and muzzle velocity; really nice against smaller ships.

Her Main guns also had a higher rate of fire and excellent shell velocity.

True the cruisers Bertin - Voroshilov with excellent Guns don't have much in this category; but i think Atago is well suited with Crippling Salvo.

Besides i think most of us see Germany as a major player in the game compared to the French and Russia so this SA on this unit contributes to that.

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 13, 2020 0:59:37 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Jul 13, 2020 0:59:37 GMT Agree to disagree I guess.
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weedsrock2
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 13, 2020 1:52:53 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 13, 2020 1:52:53 GMT

I can see MNs point. Some of the SAs in this game were basically created to represent actual ship specifications that couldn't be reflected in the attack tables. Bristling with Guns was specifically designed for large ships with large secondary batteries of smallish caliber dual-purpose guns (5in/38 USN and 5.25in QF RN guns especially.)

But that brings me back to Raider as the only reasonable alternative I can find in the SA list. At least that still supports its role as a "destroyer brawler." Especially if it gets all three SAs which I think it should.

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mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 13, 2020 2:22:13 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Jul 13, 2020 2:22:13 GMT Or Rapid Fire so you can threaten a cruiser once. Better machinery lets you get those shots off?
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flakstruk
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,839

M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 13, 2020 3:31:20 GMT via mobile

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Post by flakstruk on Jul 13, 2020 3:31:20 GMT

I think its a shame that the focus is on superseeding the historical units instead of trying to find a distinct role here.

As brawling cruisers go, hippers and deuchlands are excellent. Its not even a pressing need. And what ever point sensitive utility the K-Class, Nurnberg and Leipzig had is being deliberately eroded.

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jul 13, 2020 5:48:15 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 13, 2020 5:48:15 GMT

Jul 13, 2020 3:31:20 GMT flakstruk said:

I think its a shame that the focus is on superseeding the historical units instead of trying to find a distinct role here.

As brawling cruisers go, hippers and deuchlands are excellent. Its not even a pressing need. And what ever point sensitive utility the K-Class, Nurnberg and Leipzig had is being deliberately eroded.

What utility does the K-class, Nurnberg and Leipzig have? They are all but useless IMO.

I understand your perspective, but I just can't see the point of making this a total bookmark in order to preserve units that are already near the bottom of the barrel. It would have been a newer design that tried to overcome the shortcomings of its predecessors. As with most Axis 'what-ifs' we give them a little benefit of the doubt to give the Axis some parity with the Allies. It's not like we are making a monster power unit here. This thing will still compare rather poorly to all but the weakest of the RN light cruisers.

Do you have a suggestion other than Pinpointer?

Last Edit: Jul 13, 2020 5:59:59 GMT by weedsrock2

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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 13, 2020 5:56:04 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 13, 2020 5:56:04 GMT My main dislike of Rapid Fire is once per game. I would personally rather have a consistent boost against DDs or cruisers. (Raider or Raider Hunter)
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SWO_Daddy Deck E developer Posts: 6,016	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 13, 2020 11:26:26 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by SWO_Daddy on Jul 13, 2020 11:26:26 GMT Raider then? I'd be fine with that.
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CommanderSam Forumini Ensign Posts: 232	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jul 13, 2020 14:19:07 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by CommanderSam on Jul 13, 2020 14:19:07 GMT Jul 13, 2020 11:26:26 GMT SWO_Daddy said: Raider then? I'd be fine with that. So Would I. Raiding is an important use the German Navy intends for its cruisers

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M-Class light cruiser - München Done

Post by brigman on Jul 11, 2020 19:39:27 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on Jul 11, 2020 19:58:32 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 11, 2020 23:18:08 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 11, 2020 23:34:52 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on Jul 12, 2020 1:31:13 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Jul 12, 2020 2:15:25 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Jul 12, 2020 23:59:32 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Jul 13, 2020 0:59:37 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 13, 2020 1:52:53 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Jul 13, 2020 2:22:13 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Jul 13, 2020 3:31:20 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 13, 2020 5:48:15 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 13, 2020 5:56:04 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on Jul 13, 2020 11:26:26 GMT

Post by CommanderSam on Jul 13, 2020 14:19:07 GMT

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