M-Class light cruiser - München *Done*

flakstruk
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 19, 2020 2:35:52 GMT via mobile

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Post by flakstruk on Jun 19, 2020 2:35:52 GMT

Jun 19, 2020 0:10:48 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Jun 18, 2020 23:50:17 GMT flakstruk said:

As a long range raider and scout. What if we gave it pinpointer?

PINPOINTER: At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Submarines roll one extra attack die when making Torpedo attacks against that Ship this turn.

Have you ever seen this SA actually used in a game? I can't say that I have. Maybe it is the units it has been on.

Kondor was quite popular before the proliferation of cheap fighters.

The dutch dornier is missing a asw line from memory which hampers its use.

weedsrock2
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 19, 2020 3:45:16 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 19, 2020 3:45:16 GMT

Jun 19, 2020 2:17:05 GMT mnnorthstars said:

Uh...it’s on Kondor. Used all the time. KoD, and any other general German sub fleet. Even without the ASM it makes the Kondor worth the points.

I have seen Kondor swarms many times, but I have never seen Pinpointer used.

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oscsusnret
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 20, 2020 4:21:17 GMT

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Post by oscsusnret on Jun 20, 2020 4:21:17 GMT

I like the Hit and Run but why just once per game if this ship was designed for this tactic? Just asking.

Jun 18, 2020 1:08:04 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Jun 18, 2020 0:33:56 GMT dracos42 said:

Hit and Run fits the idea of a lone raider. Raider, Chase, and Hit and Run, but the combination might be too much movement possibilities in a single turn.

You would have to chose one or the other in a given turn. That could be confusing to some players. Both might not be worth it cost-wise either.

But Hit and Run would be perfectly viable alternative Chase. I am not sure it as valuable.

HIT AND RUN: Once per game, at the end of your Surface Attack step, if this unit has attacked an enemy Ship this phase, you may move this unit one sector away from that Ship. If you do, this unit can't claim an objective on this turn.

Hit and Run is useful for fast, vulnerable ships like destroyers to make torpedo attacks.

Avoid Engagement would also be an historically appropriate alternative.

AVOID ENGAGEMENT: At the end of the Sea Movement phase, if there are enemy Ships within range 3 of this unit, you may move this unit one sector away from the nearest enemy Ship.

It depends on whether you prefer defensive or offensive.

Last Edit: Jun 20, 2020 4:24:10 GMT by oscsusnret

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mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jun 20, 2020 5:26:46 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Jun 20, 2020 5:26:46 GMT Just an observation, Z 40 has Hit and Run. It’s either good that they both have it or limiting.
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weedsrock2
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 24, 2020 4:00:11 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 24, 2020 4:00:11 GMT

I would rather something different. Plus it is a difficult SA to use IMO. It seems like we have done a lot of movement SAs in this deck. Or maybe it is just a lot of them have been proposed. A "very" light cruiser like this needs a boost in offensive power IMO. Raider is pretty weak.

Moltke introduced Sprint. That could be a "German flavor" speed move I guess.

SPRINT: Once per game, at the beginning of your Sea Movement step, you can declare you're using Sprint. If you do, roll a die. On a 4 or higher, this unit gets +1 speed this turn. That also reflects the somewhat unreliable German surface ship steam turbine engines.

I like this one for an offensive SA.

ESCORT KILLER: This unit can make two Gunnery attacks against separate targets during your Surface Attack phase if at least one of the targets is a Destroyer. (Kent, Eugenio Di Savoia)

We made this version for Helena to restrict it to Main Guns, but that isn't necessary for this unit since it only has mains anyway.

SUSTAINED FIRE: This unit can make two Main Gunnery attacks against separate targets during your Surface Attack phase if at least one of the targets is a Destroyer. (Helena)

Sprint and Escort Killer seem like an appropriate combo for this unit.

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au64
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 24, 2020 17:24:40 GMT

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Post by au64 on Jun 24, 2020 17:24:40 GMT

Jun 18, 2020 13:46:54 GMT au64 said:

What about these as the SAs?

Chase: At the end of the Sea Movement phase, if there are no enemy ships within range 3 of this unit, you may move this unit one sector toward the nearest enemy ship

Raider: This unit rolls one extra attack die when making Gunnery attacks against Destroyers and Auxiliary units

Lone Wolf: When this unit is the only unit in the sector, planes must succeed on a search roll (per the darkness rules) in order to be placed in that sector, otherwise they are automatically aborted.

--------------

This version of Lone Wolf gives it some protection from air, none against surface or fleets and uses existing rules while alone in a sector. It is a watered down version of the Disguise SA that the German Fleet already uses for its Auxiliary-Cruiser infiltrators. It obviously would need to be playtested.

I suggested this earlier but not sure if people missed it or just didn't care for it since I didn't see any comments on it.

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jun 24, 2020 21:03:10 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Jun 24, 2020 21:03:10 GMT It seems a little overblown to give an undergunned cruiser two main gun attacks.
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waratsea4
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 24, 2020 21:06:00 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Jun 24, 2020 21:06:00 GMT

True for all intents and purposes this ship probably would have been a Raider or a Scout for a Plan Z Raider group!!!

So an SA along the lines of Chase::: fits nicely and it may have some Synergy with the Z-40 and Molke;;

But i also think its nice to see how it can benefit the Germans in the Core Game; thats were Escort Killer or Sustained Fire come in.

Nothing like it to help keeping the little ones away from the big boys and breaking up swarms.

waratsea4
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 24, 2020 21:40:47 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Jun 24, 2020 21:40:47 GMT

Jun 24, 2020 21:03:10 GMT mnnorthstars said:

It seems a little overblown to give an undergunned cruiser two main gun attacks.

Comparing it to the Savoia

The German 15cm L55 had just as good a fire rate as the Italian 6 inch and the German 88mm a superior Fire rate than the Italian 4 inch.

Your right compared to the Helena it seems a bit much; but to balance the navies i don't think its a game buster

flakstruk
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 24, 2020 23:41:41 GMT via mobile

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Post by flakstruk on Jun 24, 2020 23:41:41 GMT

I honestly think bloating it with SAs to make a frontline brawler where the stats dont support it is a mistake.

Just needs a modest ability to buff the rest of a players fleet. Allow the ship with things like guns and armour carry the fight

waratsea4
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 25, 2020 0:05:07 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Jun 25, 2020 0:05:07 GMT

Jun 24, 2020 23:41:41 GMT flakstruk said:

I honestly think bloating it with SAs to make a frontline brawler where the stats dont support it is a mistake.

Just needs a modest ability to buff the rest of a players fleet. Allow the ship with things like guns and armour carry the fight

Could you be a little clearer on what SA's bloat its it s ability to be a front line brawler and what would be a modest ability for it ??

weedsrock2
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 25, 2020 0:05:12 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 25, 2020 0:05:12 GMT

Jun 24, 2020 21:40:47 GMT waratsea4 said:

Jun 24, 2020 21:03:10 GMT mnnorthstars said:

It seems a little overblown to give an undergunned cruiser two main gun attacks.

Comparing it to the Savoia

The German 15cm L55 had just as good a fire rate as the Italian 6 inch and the German 88mm a superior Fire rate than the Italian 4 inch.

Your right compared to the Helena it seems a bit much; but to balance the navies i don't think its a game buster

I think the SA on Helena was blown way out of proportion. Neither Savoia or Kent are killer units! And Helena is very specific to countering IJN long lance swarms. In general, US cruisers are poor choices because they lack a torpedo attack IMO.

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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	M-Class light cruiser - München Done Jun 25, 2020 0:44:34 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 25, 2020 0:44:34 GMT Sprint and Raider then?
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waratsea4
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 25, 2020 0:52:09 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Jun 25, 2020 0:52:09 GMT

Jun 25, 2020 0:05:12 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Jun 24, 2020 21:40:47 GMT waratsea4 said:

Comparing it to the Savoia

The German 15cm L55 had just as good a fire rate as the Italian 6 inch and the German 88mm a superior Fire rate than the Italian 4 inch.

Your right compared to the Helena it seems a bit much; but to balance the navies i don't think its a game buster

I think the SA on Helena was blown way out of proportion. Neither Savoia or Kent are killer units! And Helena is very specific to countering IJN long lance swarms. In general, US cruisers are poor choices because they lack a torpedo attack IMO.

Neither is UK's Enterprise i don't understand your point ??

You brought up the SA i thought it was a good one for The German navy especially in a useless M class Fantasy CL unit.

We all know the pros and cons of Cruisers in this game; but if any unit deserves that SA its Helena especially after the

battle of Guadalcanal Nov 13 1942 and even at its demise at Kula Gulf

Well that being said I think as some have hinted without something useful it pretty obvious its headed for the dust pile.

Yourself and some others have made some good use at some pretty redundant units if any help other SA's make this less dusty I'm all in.

flakstruk
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M-Class light cruiser - München *Done* Jun 25, 2020 3:51:54 GMT via mobile

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Post by flakstruk on Jun 25, 2020 3:51:54 GMT

Jun 25, 2020 0:05:07 GMT waratsea4 said:

Jun 24, 2020 23:41:41 GMT flakstruk said:

I honestly think bloating it with SAs to make a frontline brawler where the stats dont support it is a mistake.

Just needs a modest ability to buff the rest of a players fleet. Allow the ship with things like guns and armour carry the fight

Could you be a little clearer on what SA's bloat its it s ability to be a front line brawler and what would be a modest ability for it ??

sprint, to bring that mighty torpedo dice a range 1 to bear. And escort killer despite having a weaker main armament that the procedeeding german light cruisers. Which are only 9 or 10 points as is.

As i suggested previously pinpointer. An extra attack dice for a players uboats fits well with german strategies and is the sort of thing a ship that compromises protection and firepower for long range crusing mighy do - ie scout for uboats to attack convoys.

Last Edit: Jun 25, 2020 3:55:10 GMT by flakstruk

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M-Class light cruiser - München Done

Post by flakstruk on Jun 19, 2020 2:35:52 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 19, 2020 3:45:16 GMT

Post by oscsusnret on Jun 20, 2020 4:21:17 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Jun 20, 2020 5:26:46 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 24, 2020 4:00:11 GMT

Post by au64 on Jun 24, 2020 17:24:40 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Jun 24, 2020 21:03:10 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Jun 24, 2020 21:06:00 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Jun 24, 2020 21:40:47 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Jun 24, 2020 23:41:41 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Jun 25, 2020 0:05:07 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 25, 2020 0:05:12 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jun 25, 2020 0:44:34 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Jun 25, 2020 0:52:09 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Jun 25, 2020 3:51:54 GMT

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