Bunker Hill was really the mold breaker here - 27 points for an Essex-class with EDF and EB was too low, but its there. I can see reasons to take a Flag 2 Essex sister with ET, but it will be pretty niche with the other competition out there (Intrepid, Essex, and Bunker Hill are all pretty nasty at their respective costs). Personally, I'd probably live without the Flag and just use Intrepid in most games, but I can see the 28 point, ET, Flag 2 version.
Having read a bit about USS Hancock's history, I'm struggling to come up with much else. Her operational history is much like many of her sisters. Wish I had something new and different to offer, but I'm at a loss.
Flag 2, ET, and TD for 28 would be okay with me.
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USS HANCOCK Points 28 Class: Essex Class Carrier Commission: April 1944 Fate: Scrapped 1976 Displacement: 27,000 tons standard Length (OA):872 ft Beam: 93 ft Speed: 33 kts Armament: 12 x 5in/38 DP (4 x 2, 4 x 1) 32 x 40mm AA (8 x 4) 46 x 20mm AA (46 x 1) Aircraft Capacity: 90-100
Flak, I could get behind that. Previous discussion didn't include Expert Dogfighter, but did include Flag 2. Regardless of Flag 2 or not, a Expert Dog + Expert Torps Essex class would be very useful and see a lot of play. Its effectively Bunker Hill, but built for Avengers rather than Dive Bombers. The counterpoint is it would effectively obsolete Intrepid in many cases - I think most players would pay that extra two points to get to Expert Dogfighter. Maybe that's ok...Bunker Hill is better than Essex or Intrepid already in my opinion.
I think if you add EDog to this unit outside of a 1943 scenario; Hornets done and Intrepid's playing time going to be hard to find.
1944 Bunker Hill and Hancock forever
No disagreement there. Short of a year limit kind of thing, this unit would join Bunker Hill as one of the best Essex options, even at 28 points. You might take Intrepid if you're trying to economize on points, but generally, you'd be better off paying 1-2 points more to get Expert Dog in addition to the other SAs. Honestly, Hancock was a good ship, but I don't know that it deserves to become one of the most used USN carriers in the game simply because we chose to make her SAs awesome-sauce. One expert SA is probably more appropriate.
That said, if we give it Expert Dog and Expert Torps, as a frequent USN player, I'll ram this thing down the throat of the IJN!
USS HANCOCK Points 28 Class: Essex Class Carrier Commission: April 1944 Fate: Scrapped 1976 Displacement: 27,000 tons standard Length (OA):872 ft Beam: 93 ft Speed: 33 kts Armament: 12 x 5in/38 DP (4 x 2, 4 x 1) 32 x 40mm AA (8 x 4) 46 x 20mm AA (46 x 1) Aircraft Capacity: 90-100
Yeah, I don't like Expert Dogfighter on this carrier. US fighters need it like a hole-in-the-head in 1944-45, and even worse without year limits. For the low cost of these Cap 4 carriers I don't think 2 Expert SAs is a good idea anyway. If you want cheese you can take Bunker Hill. No need for more IMO.
I think Flak's corrected proposal with Flag 2 and 28 points is good.
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Compared to Essex and Intrepid, that's probably costed about right at 28, assuming you value Flag 2 at 2 points. Bunker Hill is sort of a curve buster at 27 (should have been 28-29 in my opinion). I don't find the ship particularly exciting, but for what it is, its probably fair.
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones
Compared to Essex and Intrepid, that's probably costed about right at 28, assuming you value Flag 2 at 2 points. Bunker Hill is sort of a curve buster at 27 (should have been 28-29 in my opinion). I don't find the ship particularly exciting, but for what it is, its probably fair.
I suppose its variable on the value on an alternative ship you take for flag 2. And what you can take instead
Essex: Expert Bomber 2, Replenish Aircraft (50/50 shot to re-grow a 14 point plane - Helldiver, Avenger, Corsair). Flag 0 = 28 points Bunker Hill: Expert Dog, Expert Bombs, Installation Strike (admittedly very situational), Flag 0 = 27 Points Intrepid: Expert Torps, Airfield Strike, Flag 0 = 26 points Hornet: Turkey Shot (rerolls on 1 air attack after turn 4), Expert Dog, Flag 0 = 26 points
Hancock: Expert Torps, Flag 2 = __ points?
Do we really think Hancock as proposed is as good as Essex? Is it better than Bunker Hill? Or Hornet? Presumably Flag 2 is worth something, so better than Intrepid? Personally, I'm not totally sure. Bunker Hill is a total bad ass at 27 (too low in my opinion), but Essex is probably better than Hancock at 28 unless you desperately need Flag 2 on your carrier(s).
I think 27 might be a more competitive cost for Hancock as proposed. Bunker Hill is just so darn good. Flag 2 is useful in some games, particularly at 200 points. At 300 points, New Jersey + Intrepid makes Flag 2 on a carrier largely irrelevant for less points.
BTW, different Navy and different ship classes, but Roma (2 flag, 50 points) vs Vittorio Veneto (0 Flag, 49 Points). The ships are otherwise identical. From that perspective, comparing Essex to Hancock, Hancock should only cost 27 points.
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones
I think you guys are underestimating the value of Flag 2. Even more so because the Forumini "team" cards have been so stingy with Flag in general. I don't want to try to compete with Bunker Hill. It is broken and we don't need to up the ante IMO. Flag 2 isn't that easy to get with carrier builds so I think it is worth the cost. I also think 28 is the right cost. But I won't kick and scream over 27 points. I just think we are caving in to power creep.
We play mostly 200 pt games in my club so Flag 2 will definitely be a strong pull to use Hancock in many builds. Where Flag 2 isn't needed I don't see why I wouldn't take Bunker Hill. Bunker Hill basically put the other Essex's out to pasture.
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Weeds I don't disagree, particularly that the Bunker Hill is too cheap, and I can see the value of a Flag 2 carrier at 200 points. At 300 points, New Jersey often makes Flag on any USN carrier kind of irrelevant. I guess the thing I'm pointing out is that we can't avoid the fact the Bunker Hill exists, and it will be every bit as "official" as this card for Hancock. To a certain extent, I feel like we've got to acknowledge the cards that were produced in previous team decks, and when they ended up being too efficient, we're kind of stuck. At 28 points, with Flag 2 and only Expert Torps, this ship is arguably not as good as Essex, and is certainly less efficient that Bunker Hill. Flag 2 is absolutely useful when you're seeking high initiative, but otherwise this is basically just a clone of Intrepid at 26 points.
BTW, you absolutely right about Bunker Hill obsoleting Essex and Intrepid, particularly in 100-200 point games where you might only see a single carrier. I think it would be every bit as prevalent even at 28 or 29 points. I still take Intrepid in larger games to get at Expert Torps, but where in the past I might have used Enterprise + Intrepid, even in 1944 or 45, I now frequently opt for Bunker Hill + Intrepid instead. Its just more survivable (not to mention the bigger deck), and the over the top Helldiver makes Expert Bomber 2 less of a "need" - Expert Bomber is usually plenty to get the job done.
I obviously lean towards 27 points for Hancock, but 28 wouldn't be the end of the world. At either point value, it will only get taken when you need Flag 2 to reside on the carrier. Otherwise, the other Essex class are either better or cheaper options. Only one voice here - just my take on things.