New Nations- China, most of the fleet destroyed by 1937 or caputured. We could potentially make a fleet of 100 points. Would have to include a lot of 3 point ships A bunch of old crusiers 6-7-8 point ships hull2 (Hai Yung class 3, Ying Swei. Class 2. More modern Ning Hai hull 2 cruisers 2.probably 8/9/10 points each. Yat Sen gunboat hull 2 probably a 5-6 point ship Aircraft….. Lots of not great stuff. Probably best bet P-40s So you could potentially make a 100 point fleet.
So, the full list in an early draft form is on page3
Currently the aim is to confirm or fill these slots
Australia - Submarine for gameplay vs historical option Canada - Commander suggested but open for proposals France - inclusion of Dixmude as a cve option Greece - bretange class battleship begun but never delivered to greece Poland inclusion of pzl39 wilk twin engined fighter or other proposals. UK free slots x2 US free slots x2 Finland commander Germany commander Germany - refitted gneisanu Italy - marc antony sister Italy free slot Japsn free slots x2 Unassigned free slots x5
So far while there are proposals, including the bold marked proposals i added to the list while fornatting.
Non listed units can be further reviewed after the listed games and decision have been settled.
The only proposal directly endorsed S or U class submarine (prop- gaz, endorse thea)
Following only minors for this conversation The aim for 100 points is good snd I appreciate it. Australia (can do 100 easily) Has decent Crusiers, Aircraft and good DDs but lacks a bit of punch with no BB. My thoughts (hear me out) - Submarine. Can be done, many Dutch , British and US subs operated out of Australian bases. Which is why I support this as a number 1 pick. Flaky would like Oxley a what if, I would prefer K9 because she was actually part of the RAN even though a poor vessel. The chance to have a sub pick makes your opponent think they need to purchase those types of units to counter a threat. - DD/DE - I think Yarra ( which sunk a Persian sloop and had history) is a good choice. A River Class is needed for the Aussies. Canada - Submarine… problematic but see above same as Australia. Otherwise another DD/DE.in a new class. Brazil - Active during the war Needs aircraft their lthunderbolts were active in Italy and where know to have attacked shipping. Norway - a token aircraft ( Gladiator?) Or one of the older CDS as a fantasy pick
Brazils option as listed is a bit of wierd one being a riverine warship. My reading on the ABC nations is really that unless they were siding with the allies, the USA wasn't offering much in aircraft during the war. A p47 while historic would slaughter the argentine and chilean fleets. Brazil got a hand full of p36 too though.
New Nations-
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China, most of the fleet destroyed by 1937 or caputured.
We could potentially make a fleet of 100 points. Would have to include a lot of 3 point ships
A bunch of old crusiers 6-7-8 point ships hull2 (Hai Yung class 3, Ying Swei. Class 2.
More modern Ning Hai hull 2 cruisers 2.probably 8/9/10 points each.
Yat Sen gunboat hull 2 probably a 5-6 point ship
Aircraft…..
Lots of not great stuff. Probably best bet P-40s
So you could potentially make a 100 point fleet.
[/quote][/div]Its really hard to justify 5 slots to cobble a really niche fleet together. The chinese cruiser refloated by japan was done last deck, as was a p36. Gives some bits to proxy a scenario a bit better[/div]
So, the full list in an early draft form is on page3
Currently the aim is to confirm or fill these slots
Australia - Submarine for gameplay vs historical option Canada - Commander suggested but open for proposals France - inclusion of Dixmude as a cve option Greece - bretange class battleship begun but never delivered to greece Poland inclusion of pzl39 wilk twin engined fighter or other proposals. UK free slots x2 US free slots x2 Finland commander Germany commander Germany - refitted gneisanu Italy - marc antony sister Italy free slot Japsn free slots x2 Unassigned free slots x5
So far while there are proposals, including the bold marked proposals i added to the list while fornatting.
Non listed units can be further reviewed after the listed games and decision have been settled.
The only proposal directly endorsed S or U class submarine (prop- gaz, endorse thea)
You mentioned wanting an aggressive UK & Commonwealth destroyer. And you suggested HMCS Athabaskan. Why not push for a Canadian Destroyer Commander? (CDC) I watch Dr. Alexander Clarke on YouTube and he repeatedly mentions that aggressive destroyer captains were given command of Tribal destroyers. A powerful gun focused fighting DD, to make German destroyers run away from. To take part in the thickest of fleet engagements.
This CDC not tied down to Tribals, but gives all Royal Navy and Commonwealth destroyers boost in armor, gun values, evasion special abilities, higher speed movements.
While the UK commander can be focused on ASW abilities.
Speaking of minor nations, I came across an old deck from the old forumini. Frozen Seas. Has anyone ever thought of including the Danes?
German U-boat focused commander like Gunther Prien is an excellent candidate,
I think the last two slots should go to being neutral installations
Erwin Rommel - "Give me American supply lines, British planes, German officers and Canadian troops, and I can take over the world".
I'm kinda surprised with the half dozen contributors so far and at this stage in the overall scheme of things how varied and far apart some of the views/suggestions are.
I'm certainly in the camp of main historical combatants making up the bulk in the time old fashioned way. The more minors/neutrals/obscure/theoretical stuff creeping in (the list is looking well stocked in this regard already) is not going to appeal to this most numerous camp and I think if voted for (at least with the contributors who used to be regulars), a lot off this stuff probably wouldn't make the cut. If a couple of endorsements is all its taking then that's potentially just adding some fringe stuff for a very small crowd. Historical picks/main combatants be it sisters or new units, are always going to be the pull for a wider audience.
I'm sure we could all fill in the free slots as we see fit but it's kinda hard to gauge when we can't really discuss the other semi filled slots already. Working out who is getting commanders (personally no proposals here) and if we are not going to add an extra big ship/aircraft for the sake of it and starting from there with the free slots left might help. We are likely then to get nations with an extra cruiser/three DDs/two subs etc. This has never really happened before but these are going to be the types with multiple choices really.
All I can see so far is one of the UK free slots will be filled with a sub and probably the Italian should be a DD/escort type. Also I think the Avro Anson has been pretty much proposed, being the only or first picks in people lists (not the only one) by at least two people across recent two threads on this discussion - There is not much difference between picking any of the three suggested UK PBs really. For me the Anson would be in the main a cheap early war u boat harasser with something like an ASW boost when adjacent to land to recognize its limited range (not sure what the standard ASW load out would be?) or something theoretical - over auxiliaries, defensively on your side of the map SA's etc.
"That's right son, join the navy. Get behind a bloody big gun and knock the hell out of somebody"
"We went out, got our arses kicked, then came back again"
The most popular filler for the UK slots look like a Dido/Bellona and Sub Starling, a medium bomber, a battleship slot, a big cruiser and depot ship are already pencilled in. The UK having 10 slots is above the usual for recent decks 8 or 9, with 5 whole slots yet to be assigned.
USN has 11 slots including a essex, the oklohma, a heavy cruiser, pt boat tender, and edsall and bagley class destroyer.
Germany is very ugly with a antilope and mini sub so probably is in need of rejigging. Confirmation of the Gniesienu was be a good start
Italy has the much asked for marc antony sister looking for confirmation, A CL scipione africano sister, a fleet sub. Im. Not sure what olterra will do that sirce doesnt already Thea makes a good proposal in Crespi as DD both counterpointing the USS Jamestown as a PT boat tender. To mind a better option for a auxiliary type for the italians than olterra.
Japan as a list looks underdone. Any battleship option is hypothetical or operational which sucks. Ibuki as a under construction heavy cruiser is maybe passable in a heavy ship role. Ignoring the repeat mogamis before conversion proposal, does it become a 5th, mogami for class limits. The amagi destroyed by the earthquake is indicative of the same issue. Though there are some light cruiser option, but nothing approaching essex's quality for parity. One of the 3 remaining cruisers is included in tatsua, perhaps, adding another, plus ibuki is enough cover for a battleship
Minors are assigned 14 slots in this list presently. Chile has fallen off entirely.
Your last post summing up, makes things a bit clearer.
Replying in order of that post.
In theory the UK probably has solid capital ship picks for another two decks-ish. I would imagine either of Malaya (this seems to be getting more mention ATM) or Howe for the last couple to do in their classes would be preferred to a BB with barges which is quite niche (I think the Hornet last deck showed reverting to tried and trusted type is safer ground than trying to do something too left field). That would leave one of either Malaya/Howe to do going forward with some R class and also Courageous for a big carrier. I think it would be right though to concentrate on an escort carrier this deck (a Fencer reprint, HMS Vindex etc. for new type or Audacity for historical significance), as the RN don't have a lot of these and the larger carriers have been heavily included. Thought I'd missed an AUX type with depot ship but its obviously Adventure. Might actually be room for once though, for one of the varied aux types in the UK fleet. This area is underrepresented with their aux types in the main being general merchant types. Thinking sub tender, CAM ship or a Palomares type which were in effect floating AA escort platforms.
The V&W type seems to be getting some backing, that would then come down to variant of it, AA, Long range escort etc. I put Vanoc forward previously for the fact it would have ram on it and to me this has always been a fun ability (wasn't just DDs that did it, one of the Didos rammed an Italian sub and if Valiant had made contact with the German sub that sank Barham, a BB theoretically could have had it!). We had the discussion about putting it on the flower type last deck but this ram would obviously be on a speed two ship. Vanoc's was certainly one of the most famous Rams of the war for sinking U 100 and actually pinning the ace commander Schepke to the inside of his conning tower. The Black Swan Starling is going to be well loaded out as a u boat killer and leader but wouldn't have to be similar from an anti u boat perspective (Starling actually also rammed a u boat but with all the potential SAs, this doesn't have to be on that).
Scylla could have a flag for arctic convoys leader (heavily in action with Wainwright etc.), some sort of general command/headquarter SA and it was also used to co-ordinate MTBs and repel E boats (wiki) both these latter (D Day), in addition to its general AA abilities.
For the U.S., not going to run short of BBs, Essex types etc. to fill big slots. Would not go against an escort carrier but would happily see three DD/escort types, even two subs etc. The Jamestown would seem decent and fun with PT boats.
Yeah, the Seehund doesn't excite me too much either. I looked at u boats we haven't done and U 124 has an unbelievable tonnage sunk record. I wish that had been spotted last deck as U 180 had a very average history (not 100% sure why that was put forward) but the former is a strong option still. Two or three of the early Z types still don't have cards anywhere I believe and Reidel was the most active of these.
Crispi (no info on wiki really) could be interesting with its links to the MAS boats. I was looking at their smaller corvette types again from an anti submarine POV (Cigno just done is surface ability orientated). Some of these operated in sub killer teams with successes (Gabbiano, Euterpe (both Antilope types) and Circe actually sank four subs - high success for the Italians. These latter are prob the best examples the Italians have to the allied sub killer teams. Olterra is historically significant and don't see why it couldn't be attempted. Would have to see what the currently stated sub class would be, any standout boat etc.? The only really good history boat overall I could see was E Tazzoli for tonnage sunk in Atlantic etc.
Amagi would have seen war service and the availability of the Akagi mini helps. Otherwise yeah, smaller stuff and/or re jigging some of the axis slots around.