German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done*

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	German Destroyer ZH-1 Done Nov 22, 2020 22:51:15 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Nov 22, 2020 22:51:15 GMT I think 9 is right. 10 is an overcost based on what it does.
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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	German Destroyer ZH-1 Done Nov 22, 2020 22:54:43 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 22, 2020 22:54:43 GMT Oops. Got ahead of myself. 9 sounds good to me.
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weedsrock2
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 22, 2020 22:56:34 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 22, 2020 22:56:34 GMT

So ready for card and flavor text?

ZH-1
Class: Gerard Callenburgh Class Destroyer
Commissioned: 11 October 1942
Fate: Scuttled 9 June 1944
Displacement: 1,604 tons standard
Length(OA): 350 ft 1 in
Beam: 34 ft 9 in
Speed: 37.5 knots
Armament: 5 x 4.7 in (2 x 2, 1 x 1), 4 x 37 mm AA (2 x 2), 4 x 20 mm AA, 8 x 21 in TT (2 x IIII) 4 DC Throwers, 24 mines

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Suggested Stats

Ship: ZH-1
Year: 1942
Cost: 9
Speed: 2
MG: 5/4/4
AA: 6
ASW: 5
TT: 2/2/1
A/VA/HP: 2/7/2
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Submarine Escort - This unit may deploy in any sector on your side of the map that contains a friendly Submarine. If you do, this unit can't claim an objective on turn 1 or 2.

Stalwart - This unit can make Gunnery attacks with no penalties while crippled.

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waratsea4
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 23, 2020 3:06:24 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Nov 23, 2020 3:06:24 GMT

Yeah! I know the gates been opened and all the animals our out and free; but someone got to start looking at the

German DD fleet

Every Navy's got its "point wonder" ship;;

USN Fletcher; Italy's Roscana; IJN Inazuma; UK's Cossack; Frances Leopard; Russia's Moskva

Polands Piorun:

Im not trying to compare them just saying one way or another they got the point relief and it gave them some build flexibility.

Germany really doesn't have much in that when it comes to DD's and yes you can make the case all day long its a 9 pointer

and its better than there 8pts;;; but its not really better than there 9 pts.

And if you do compare it to sum Piorun for example 8pts is well justified and a big plus for Germany.

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	German Destroyer ZH-1 Done Nov 23, 2020 3:57:19 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Nov 23, 2020 3:57:19 GMT I think Piorun is an outlier more than a benchmark.
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weedsrock2
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 23, 2020 6:24:07 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 23, 2020 6:24:07 GMT

I disagree on Roscana. Torp line is below average, the SA's are 'meh,' but mostly it is 1944. I have never played an Italian game past 1943. It is useless paper in my collection. If you are playing "anything goes" there are much better alternatives for 1944. If you are playing pure Italian with a 1944 or 45 date I say good luck to you!

But I do think ZH-1 is more on the 8 - 9 "bubble". AA is top of the line for a DD, mains are also above average, torps are standard/good, ASW 5 is also at least standard/good, armor is average. It is the SA that bumps it up. Sub Escort is a very, very good SA. On the other hand it is a class limit of one if you play with class limits. (Most people that I know do.)

If we aren't sure on the cost the best solution is to send it to the play testers and tell them we aren't sure if it should be 8 or 9. We should do that anyway.

Last Edit: Nov 23, 2020 6:36:57 GMT by weedsrock2

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weedsrock2
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 23, 2020 6:27:28 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 23, 2020 6:27:28 GMT

I agree with you on Fletcher. It was undercost, but interestingly RB and the teams have still managed to power creep the class so well that I rarely see Fletcher used. Like many Set I units, its main problem is the low cost floor it established. To be fair "Chase the Salvos" is pretty useless on a DD, and that is why I never use it. I think USS Johnston is power creep king of the USN DDs. Maybe Wainwright.

Last Edit: Nov 23, 2020 6:30:13 GMT by weedsrock2

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waratsea4
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 23, 2020 23:47:55 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Nov 23, 2020 23:47:55 GMT

Benchmarks, outliers or reasoning why any of those units are cost at what they are;; Who's to say

just saying they pretty much benefit that nations build; even in the case of the Fletcher, especially if you want something cheap for its benefits.

I believe you are in a world far from War at Sea if you think this is a 7 or 10 pt. unit;

It is 8 or 9; Just saying i think the benefit of 8 pts gives the German DD selection a nice plus thats not going to turn the game

on its heels.

Last Edit: Nov 23, 2020 23:50:19 GMT by waratsea4

mnnorthstars
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 24, 2020 3:52:01 GMT

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Post by mnnorthstars on Nov 24, 2020 3:52:01 GMT

4 or 12 wouldn’t either, it’s just a question of where it fits based on close comparisons, first within nation, then faction (red), and occasionally the whole game. Nobody looks at British cruisers for comps on a Japanese cruiser unless there are no other comparable ships.

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flakstruk
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 24, 2020 6:51:05 GMT via mobile

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Post by flakstruk on Nov 24, 2020 6:51:05 GMT

Honestly i think the actual meaning for a difference of points on units like this is pretty slim. Youll take the the units that have the abilities that you want. Unless that ability is on a obviously overcosted unit

My advice is, unless it would be blantantly undercost - roll down.

raevski Administrator Cooking with gas Posts: 1,615	German Destroyer ZH-1 Done Nov 25, 2020 6:44:03 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by raevski on Nov 25, 2020 6:44:03 GMT 8 points bumps other dDs to the bin.

waratsea4
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 25, 2020 18:04:55 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Nov 25, 2020 18:04:55 GMT

Nov 25, 2020 6:44:03 GMT raevski said:

8 points bumps other dDs to the bin.

I don't believe that to be so; This is a Class of one and the Yomen work of the

other German DD's;; Smoke; Close Escort; Sub Hunter; Rapid Fire; DD Hunter are hard to over look

and compliment this unit.

waratsea4
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 25, 2020 18:19:46 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Nov 25, 2020 18:19:46 GMT

Sorry if the remarks of 7 or 10 pts. offended anyone:

Cost is a critical part of this game; It shouldn't be taken lightly in my opinion.

As with many units, especially on the lower cost end they fall in that half point range; i think its worthy of

discussion to see if it falls on the lower or upper half.

As i guess you can tell i feel the lower end helps the unit get more attention;

and I also don't believe it sets the German DD's or the Game on its heels.

brenticus86
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 26, 2020 14:09:12 GMT via mobile

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Post by brenticus86 on Nov 26, 2020 14:09:12 GMT

Makes most sense to me as an 8 pt unit. It’s submarine escort, not screen so you end up with a lone destroyer out there with a submarine that provides no AA value. This likely means this unit dies round one aircraft. Probably preserves the submarine for one more round but is that expense worth it? Destroyers off on their own, even at 6AA, are asking for trouble.

weedsrock2
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German Destroyer ZH-1 *Done* Nov 26, 2020 19:28:34 GMT Theaetetus likes this

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Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 26, 2020 19:28:34 GMT

Nov 26, 2020 14:09:12 GMT brenticus86 said:

Makes most sense to me as an 8 pt unit. It’s submarine escort, not screen so you end up with a lone destroyer out there with a submarine that provides no AA value. This likely means this unit dies round one aircraft. Probably preserves the submarine for one more round but is that expense worth it? Destroyers off on their own, even at 6AA, are asking for trouble.

It also reduces the torpedo attacks of all the submarines around it by -1 on that first turn if it survives. In a lot of our local club games the first turn is basically the "submarine attack" turn because that is when the subs enter the center row and "Duke it out." Having a DD up there could reduce up to three attacks.

It also has significant value if it forces your opponent to use air assets to attack a destroyer on the first turn instead of a more valuable target. In a typical 200 pt game a significant investment in aircraft really has to pay for itself in the first two turns before the surface fleets meet in the middle. Put a friendly fighter over it for protection that first turn.

The Germans also have several options to put another ship in the same sector as that destroyer - Schleswig-Holstein, Atlantis, Schlesien, Kormoran, and Komet.

Finally, put an Advance Naval Base up front and have a Jaguar pop out and join it.

So it can have a lot of disruptive value that first turn.

I think it should be sent to the playtesters with the comment that it is on the 8-9 bubble and see what they say. We do this all the time. It is what they are there for.

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German Destroyer ZH-1 Done

Post by mnnorthstars on Nov 22, 2020 22:51:15 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 22, 2020 22:54:43 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 22, 2020 22:56:34 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Nov 23, 2020 3:06:24 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Nov 23, 2020 3:57:19 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 23, 2020 6:24:07 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 23, 2020 6:27:28 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Nov 23, 2020 23:47:55 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Nov 24, 2020 3:52:01 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Nov 24, 2020 6:51:05 GMT

Post by raevski on Nov 25, 2020 6:44:03 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Nov 25, 2020 18:04:55 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Nov 25, 2020 18:19:46 GMT

Post by brenticus86 on Nov 26, 2020 14:09:12 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Nov 26, 2020 19:28:34 GMT

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