I think the case can be made to make the Indomitable a Cap 3 carrier. She was the half sister to the Illustrious (Cap 2), but differed in having 2 flight decks like the Arc Royal (Cap 3). It was also able to store the fuel that the Illustrious couldn't.
The question really becomes does a 4th British Cap 3 carrier tip the balance towards the UK in the North and Med, especially in 1941/1942?
I think the case can be made to make the Indomitable a Cap 3 carrier. She was the half sister to the Illustrious (Cap 2), but differed in having 2 flight decks like the Arc Royal (Cap 3). It was also able to store the fuel that the Illustrious couldn't.
The question really becomes does a 4th British Cap 3 carrier tip the balance towards the UK in the North and Med, especially in 1941/1942?
Going back to Lurker mode...
I totally disagree based on game standards for CAP 2 and Cap 3 Carriers;
By games standards am talking about what has been done in the past and that includes expansion;
I made the case many moons ago about the Unryu and was knock down by what i believe was ridiculous reasoning;
really won't want to get into it again hate to see the same stupidity all over.
Personally, i dont think the early development stage. Specific aircraft numbers were that important. I think it was a basic deliniation of - escort carriers: fighters or bombers, light carriers fighters and bombers, fleet carriers, fighter and both types of bombers. Ive never seen specific evidence to disprove that. Our squadron/cap figures are extrapolated from a bunch or secondary references. So yes, au64 does have a point.
That said, there are 2 existing, very similar cap3s in indefagitable and implacable? So going against the grain here isnt really justified.
Fighter cover 5 isnt hugely useful in this case because its not a cheap dispoable ship and it has a later entry date. Perhaps the solution would a 'Bomber Cover' SA based on FC5. Sure you get a decent attack thats difficult to stop but you have to take it into harms way. By 'bomber cover' im thinking a range limited, permanent attack. The FC attack cannot be prevented. So perhaps in this instance the attacking unit might be targetted but cannot be destroyed. The mere act of targetting it aborts it however.
Personally, i dont think the early development stage. Specific aircraft numbers were that important. I think it was a basic deliniation of - escort carriers: fighters or bombers, light carriers fighters and bombers, fleet carriers, fighter and both types of bombers. Ive never seen specific evidence to disprove that. Our squadron/cap figures are extrapolated from a bunch or secondary references. So yes, au64 does have a point.
That said, there are 2 existing, very similar cap3s in indefagitable and implacable? So going against the grain here isnt really justified.
Fighter cover 5 isnt hugely useful in this case because its not a cheap dispoable ship and it has a later entry date. Perhaps the solution would a 'Bomber Cover' SA based on FC5. Sure you get a decent attack thats difficult to stop but you have to take it into harms way. By 'bomber cover' im thinking a range limited, permanent attack. The FC attack cannot be prevented. So perhaps in this instance the attacking unit might be targetted but cannot be destroyed. The mere act of targetting it aborts it however.
With regard to the game;
1;; I believe i understand you thoughts on the Games air units and how they don't or can't truly represent any carriers all around mix;
IF so could not agree more.
2;; Some thoughts on the games Illustrious Class and Indefatigable;
The first three Illustrious later in the war when deck parking became a refit norm could all carry a little more than 50 a true game CAP 2
Indefatigable and her sister over 80 a true CAP 3
3;; Point being
When designers create a unit;;; Pennsylvania for example its year entered war plus any improvements ala Pennsylvania's AA rating for 1941 a little high
4;; Indomitable is definitely a candidate for some ground between the groups; but she's not a CAP 3.
If we want to talk about how to do that, some good ideas have already been posted;
I strongly believe Cap 2 carriers are the games worst use of air; why I argued for the Unryu's to be CAP 3;; but a PRECEDENT has been set;
5;; The Ideas so far;; poor and limited facilities have been posted, for this unit its to broad.
This unit needs a new limited CAP SA and i believe it should be based of Fighters only;
Example its a Cap 2 but a CAP 3 if 2 are fighters; if 2 fighters return in a single phase one fighter needs to rearm;
Its totally based on the history of these UK carriers air wings and the lack of their original aircraft designs.
They had no true DB or an against all navies TB; in the Pacific they did fighter sweeps;
I believe this approach holds back early war advantages and gives late war reality.
The early entry, late representation isnt a team invention. Though within the teams its referred to as "best refit" ie best stas, typically enhanced AA (43-43) but not at the expense of surface attack power (44-45)
The F4F Wildcat is the single worse case of this. It boned the air element of the game from the outset.
The early entry, late representation isnt a team invention. Though within the teams its referred to as "best refit" ie best stas, typically enhanced AA (43-43) but not at the expense of surface attack power (44-45)
The F4F Wildcat is the single worse case of this. It boned the air element of the game from the outset.
I think we know that RB was going in a Generic direction with most of his early units; but like all success and the need for more
you have to be innovative;; The Team Decks advance into the game pretty much had to deal with what way they thought best.
For me until Hood they did a great job.
Not crying over spilt milk i like new units in most any form unless they leave no avenue of use for an original.
We've been back and forth for a while pretty well stated what i'd like and to see and why;;; how about you.
OK, I think we need to get back to actually coming out with unit proposals for this thing.
CAP2 ... Flag2 was proposed (fine by me) ExB (ok) ExF2 (unique for a Brit fleet carrier) Fighter Cover 5 (best way to rep the extra fighter complements without muddling the Cap situation) I assume being from the same group as Illustious she'll have Torpedo Defense as well.
OK, I think we need to get back to actually coming out with unit proposals for this thing.
CAP2 ... Flag2 was proposed (fine by me) ExB (ok) ExF2 (unique for a Brit fleet carrier) Fighter Cover 5 (best way to rep the extra fighter complements without muddling the Cap situation) I assume being from the same group as Illustious she'll have Torpedo Defense as well.
That's a beefy carrier.
The only thing i would change is Expert Torpedo over Expert Bomber;
Early War Swordfish / Albacore ; Pacific she carried Avengers; could work nice with VET. Torp. SA on Formidable.
I agree expert Torpedo is more appropriate for the RN. They rejected dive bombing completely, and even returned some Dauntless'. That said, the Avenger was used by both navies quite extensively as a more traditional "gliding dive" bomber. That isn't as accurate as dive bombing, but still effective.
I think CAP 2 plus a bump to CAP 3 if two of the units are fighters is the way to go. This carrier was a "tweener" design between the Illustrious class and the Implacable class.
We have never used deck parks as part of the capacity calculation. Mainly because only the Allies did it from mid-war on. The IJN didn't have enough aircraft (carrier pilots actually) to even fill their normal complement of aircraft by that time!
I can see the argument that it is a Cap3 with a big condition. You HAVE to base 2 fighters on it to get three planes on it. So you can't put more than a single attack plane on the carrier otherwise it reverts back to a CAP2 carrier.
Post by Solomiranthius on Aug 3, 2018 20:39:42 GMT
I like u ique ideas, but if we've given other ships on the boundary of CAP more restrictive SAs, should we go this route here? What about Fighter Cover 7? Something a tad more effective than 5.
"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
I can see the argument that it is a Cap3 with a big condition. You HAVE to base 2 fighters on it to get three planes on it. So you can't put more than a single attack plane on the carrier otherwise it reverts back to a CAP2 carrier.
It's really a Cap 2.7
I agree; don't you think rearming one of the Fighters accomplishes that???