Jean Bart

waratsea4
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Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 2:08:29 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 2, 2018 2:08:29 GMT

Was wondering what a completed Jean Bart card might look like;; RB style;
Its easy enough to add a turret and a lot more realistic than the some of the French nonsense added by expansion.

Doing a little research on both Richelieu and Jean Bart there were some differences;
Jean Bart had a larger bridge and higher mast; she was slightly wider and heavier.
Her upper deck extended to the ships edge giving her more Secondary and AA mounts, she had 12,000 more bhp
giving her a top speed of 32knots, i believe only the Iowa's were faster, she also had only one row of hull ports.
She did lack catapults and had a smaller boat deck.
Really don't know how much that would translate into ship values; but i believe a completed Jean Bart's SA's could be quite
interesting and even realistically best Richelieu's.

Was again wondering what some of our card makers thought it might look like.

Can never understand why we always think the grass is greener in the World of OZ

drittal Forumini Ensign Posts: 41	Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 2:24:14 GMT via Tapatalk Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by drittal on Mar 2, 2018 2:24:14 GMT As completed, JB was very different than Richelieu in the secondary and AA outfit. Also some superficial differences.

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,164	Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 2:33:39 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 2, 2018 2:33:39 GMT RB probably would have done some sort of flag rating on her. He liked to use Flag to differentiate sisters.
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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 4,527	Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 3:25:45 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 2, 2018 3:25:45 GMT About the only thing you mentioned that might change the core stats that I can see would be the secondaries and AA if they were significantly greater.
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mnnorthstars
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,164

Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 13:42:57 GMT

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Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 2, 2018 13:42:57 GMT

Weaky has these armament differences.

Jean Bart
8 40mm Bofors in quads
20 20mm Oerlikon singles

From ‘53-4
24 100mm/55 modele 1945 AA guns in twins
28 57mm/60 modele 1951 AA guns in twins

Richelieu
56 40mm Bofors in quads
48 20mm Oerlikon singles

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mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,164	Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 13:50:35 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 2, 2018 13:50:35 GMT 15/15/14/12 6/6/5/5 6/6/5 9 AA? The postwar gun models would put her on par with Tirpitz’s AA? Or all the 20mms still make the distinction?
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sirmagnusfrydsen
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Jean Bart Mar 2, 2018 20:29:49 GMT

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Post by sirmagnusfrydsen on Mar 2, 2018 20:29:49 GMT

Mar 2, 2018 3:25:45 GMT weedsrock2 said:

About the only thing you mentioned that might change the core stats that I can see would be the secondaries and AA if they were significantly greater.

That would still make her stout and one of the best 5 battleships in the game.

I use to be Sir Valentine.. I have updated.

weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 4,527	Jean Bart Mar 3, 2018 0:58:12 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 3, 2018 0:58:12 GMT Mar 2, 2018 13:50:35 GMT mnnorthstars said: 15/15/14/12 6/6/5/5 6/6/5 9 AA? The postwar gun models would put her on par with Tirpitz’s AA? Or all the 20mms still make the distinction? No post war stats for me.
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mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,164	Jean Bart Mar 3, 2018 1:59:39 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 3, 2018 1:59:39 GMT Is that what you meant, was4?
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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 8,367	Jean Bart Mar 3, 2018 9:34:08 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Mar 3, 2018 9:34:08 GMT If she was completed in france in 41/42 she'd have hotchkiss 37mms instead of bofors wouldnt she?

waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

Jean Bart Mar 3, 2018 13:28:14 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 3, 2018 13:28:14 GMT

I agree the core values neither would or should change; but
I do think the slight changes could add some interesting SA's to the French.

Removing the Plentiful Excellent Spotter SA and adding one or two other SA's could make make for an interesting unit in the world of Expansion;

The Larger Bridge; Flag; Battleship or Carrier Leader

Some probable Jean Bert Uses if France did prevail; Her extra second mounts;
Since French BB's have Anti Air Barrage some probable new AA SA's;;
Working with the French CV's; Avoid Stuka; Stuka's can not use Press the Attack against this unit of any unit in its sector
Or Unmask AA; win initiative get 2 extra AA die for AA attacks.

Her work for North Africa, Sicily or Normandy invasions;
Cover Landing or Battery Silencer;
Her added speed;
Distent Cover or Avoid Engagement

Everyone see things a little different just some of my ideas, a little surprised the unit has never real gotten much attention;

Last Edit: Mar 3, 2018 18:08:25 GMT by waratsea4

weedsrock2
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Posts: 4,527

Jean Bart Mar 4, 2018 16:59:33 GMT cevguy likes this

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Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 4, 2018 16:59:33 GMT

The material differences are small enough that I would be inclined to give her the core stats of Richy (which are darn good) and go with a different SA or two as you suggest. Basically doing an operational variant.

I think there are probably a couple of reasons an operational variant of Jean Bart hasn't come up. One is the French don't get a lot of attention from most folks. Another is that doing an operational variant doesn't increase class limits. And the class limits thing ties into the fact that the French had plans to build a couple more Richelieu sisters (Clemenceau and Gascoigne) that do help the French out more than just an operational variant. Add that Jean Bart is actually a unique and useful unit for its cost and that puts doing a variant into a fairly low priority. At least for me. (Much like redoing Akagi was of little interest to me.) At this point I would rather do Gascoigne. That design would definitely have been significantly different with her main turrets fore and aft. And thanks for reminding me we haven't done her yet! There is even a nice Shapeways mini for it.

Last Edit: Mar 4, 2018 17:00:44 GMT by weedsrock2

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waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

Jean Bart Mar 4, 2018 17:13:17 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 4, 2018 17:13:17 GMT

The one and true comparison to this unit is of coarse Richelieu;
Never intending to change the unit outside what it may have looked like completed with its slight difference and the Richelieu comparison.
On the Historic to Fantasy meter this is a lot closer to Historic than some other French expansion, with all the
searching at the bottom of barrel for capital ships this seems like a gem.

I put a few ideas out there wondering if it seemed to pervasive or if it had some interest;
also wondering if some had any other thoughts or thought at all on the unit.

mnnorthstars
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,164

Jean Bart Mar 4, 2018 22:39:16 GMT

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Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 4, 2018 22:39:16 GMT

If RB had made another Jean Bart as she was designed, I think he would have gone with Flag 2 and no SAs besides ER5 and TD. He played it pretty conservative on ships that were good in their own right regarding SAs, and his battleships tended to be pretty plain when he could get away with it (i.e., when it wasn’t too much like a sister).

Only flag differentiates a pair:
George V/Prince of Wales
California/Tennessee

Otherwise:
Dunkerque/Strasbourg
Arkhangelsk/Royal Oak
Nelson/Rodney
North Carolina/Washington
Bismarck/Tirpitz
Scharnhorst/Gneisenau
Caio Duilio/Andrea Doria
Yamato/Musashi
Fuso/Yamashiro

He also did the flag trick with Roma and Vittorio Veneto, but Littorio is also in the class.

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waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

Jean Bart Mar 5, 2018 0:53:08 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 5, 2018 0:53:08 GMT

Mar 4, 2018 22:39:16 GMT mnnorthstars said:

If RB had made another Jean Bart as she was designed, I think he would have gone with Flag 2 and no SAs besides ER5 and TD. He played it pretty conservative on ships that were good in their own right regarding SAs, and his battleships tended to be pretty plain when he could get away with it (i.e., when it wasn’t too much like a sister).

Only flag differentiates a pair:
George V/Prince of Wales
California/Tennessee

Otherwise:
Dunkerque/Strasbourg
Arkhangelsk/Royal Oak
Nelson/Rodney
North Carolina/Washington
Bismarck/Tirpitz
Scharnhorst/Gneisenau
Caio Duilio/Andrea Doria
Yamato/Musashi
Fuso/Yamashiro

He also did the flag trick with Roma and Vittorio Veneto, but Littorio is also in the class.

I completely agree; but with the advent of expansion and forgetting my RB style remark what do u think or would like it to look;;

Weeds said something about it being Operational; I don't see it; or do i really understand this premiss of Operational Units;; u want to change originals its tricky;
Never going to please everyone but some no mater how u do it, it's going to help others complete turnoff for me.

Last Edit: Mar 5, 2018 1:10:08 GMT by waratsea4

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Post by waratsea4 on Mar 2, 2018 2:08:29 GMT

Post by drittal on Mar 2, 2018 2:24:14 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 2, 2018 2:33:39 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 2, 2018 3:25:45 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 2, 2018 13:42:57 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 2, 2018 13:50:35 GMT

Post by sirmagnusfrydsen on Mar 2, 2018 20:29:49 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 3, 2018 0:58:12 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 3, 2018 1:59:39 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Mar 3, 2018 9:34:08 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 3, 2018 13:28:14 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Mar 4, 2018 16:59:33 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 4, 2018 17:13:17 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Mar 4, 2018 22:39:16 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Mar 5, 2018 0:53:08 GMT

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