for that limited but deadly need be. I think the UK CW cruisers are the best deal in the game; the range 2 Torps and lower cost against Italy and Germany are nice advantages. IJN LL are nice but their cost just hurts a bit; and when the USN can its ER4's help quite a bit. Like the Wichita also; to me its that great third objective enfilade attack unit.
Our club tends to play theatre scenarios more than nation vs nation. When I have the option in a "Pacific" tournament I will usually go for an Aussie or Kiwi cruiser over a USN cruiser if the scenario requires me to include some cruisers in the build. The UK cruisers definitely have an edge with a range 2 TT attack versus the Italian and German cruisers that are only range 1. The German "Pocket Battleships" are usable with their range 4 main guns, but the rest of the German cruisers are rarely seen except Von der Tann. Von der Tann is somewhat the German "Wichita." The Italian cruisers are really tough to play IMO. They also have poor AA. The ones with a speed movement are their main hat trick. Pair Eugenio with a smoker or Zara. Try to grab an objective before being destroyed.
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Try playing a game with Cruisers and DD's only, allowing 1-2 each of subs and air. A very enjoyable alternate version of the game, and cruisers really show what they are best at. After all, in real life BB's were few and far between, and it was cruisers that held the line.
It's not realistic in the war to always expect to have air cover and a battleship or three.
It's a game. In the standard open competition form of the game you can pretty much expect battleships or American air. The BBs are cost too low overall in the game.
That's why we play a lot of different scenario conditions in our club. Otherwise the games would revolve around just a few power builds.
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Oh, I understand the reasons behind how we got where we are. It's certainly more fun to roll the buckets of dice than several small shots, and carriers and battleships are the key selling points of the game. I'm just saying that if the real admirals played as fast and loose with capital ships as the most conservative WaS player, they'd all be at the bottom of the ocean in a year's time.
Oh, I understand the reasons behind how we got where we are. It's certainly more fun to roll the buckets of dice than several small shots, and carriers and battleships are the key selling points of the game. I'm just saying that if the real admirals played as fast and loose with capital ships as the most conservative WaS player, they'd all be at the bottom of the ocean in a year's time.
Most WWII admirals wanted to fight with their battleships. It was still core doctrine at the start of the war. But you are correct that they found out that wasn't going to happen. This game isn't about resource management though. It is strictly tactical. I don't think the game evolved to this. It was this way from the start. If anything I think RB and the Sea God teams - and others - have tried pretty hard to provide alternatives as we have gone along.
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Notice the remarks to Light Defensive Armament on Helldiver Personally can't understand where Industry standards make for a perfect game. Admittedly some costs, values and SA's seem a bit out of order but aren't these the intangibles that make it a game. Not saying some units defiantly need errata;but again if you don't do it isn't it wrong??? I think we have to admit even with his low cost BB's and such other things we all gravitated to the game and it plays well even with all the tinkering. For me to enjoy reading about play or doing a build its all about the originals with a sprinkling of expansion; never caring or in my case let them dominate a build.
Cruisers are good for their SAs, hull points and guns or torps. But competitively, they often don't make the cut due to the appeal of the BB-DD-sub-fighter builds, which is probably why you asked the question in the first place.
The value and use of cruisers really depends on the size of your fleet, the map and scenario/game description. With all the units now in the game, you are looking at the core surface ships of destroyers, cruisers and battleships ranging in cost from a few points to quite a lot of points. Cruisers fall in the middle there overlapping with the destroyers and battleships. But how useful are they? Or rather, how useful are they at countering an enemy threat? How are you going to counter what the enemy might throw at you, especially the big threats like BB, torp swarms, subs and air? Unfortunately, the cruiser is not the answer to these threats except for the DD swarm or the long lance.
Cruisers are good for their SAs, hull points and guns or torps. But competitively, they often don't make the cut due to the appeal of the BB-DD-sub-fighter builds, which is probably why you asked the question in the first place.
The value and use of cruisers really depends on the size of your fleet, the map and scenario/game description. With all the units now in the game, you are looking at the core surface ships of destroyers, cruisers and battleships ranging in cost from a few points to quite a lot of points. Cruisers fall in the middle there overlapping with the destroyers and battleships. But how useful are they? Or rather, how useful are they at countering an enemy threat? How are you going to counter what the enemy might throw at you, especially the big threats like BB, torp swarms, subs and air? Unfortunately, the cruiser is not the answer to these threats except for the DD swarm or the long lance.
I really wasn't asking a question of there value; I believe you stated right here pretty much as i feel. The Big cruiser without an SA to help beat DD's are of little value per cost. The smaller less costly Cruisers with range 2 Torpedo's and ER3 MG can find some use The USN has some nice value in its smaller AA Cruisers Just put it out there to see what players think of their use and value. I did say to myself when i saw the new USN cruiser, why put it in that category, we have enough wasted ones. But yet everyone that bother to respond loved it, read some remarks from my post, just have to scratch my head.