Transferring thread - please don't post here (Mogami)

Some notes on this :

Unit name isn't finalised, but we note the public suggestion is A-Go Mogami.

Scout Cruiser 2 bonus does NOT stack with Scout Cruiser Bonus. This follows the same rules clarification as EDF1 / EDF2 not stacking.

Costing may seem low compared to Tone, but Tone is widely considered to be overcosted, especially with the easy availability of Gotland.

Originally posted by Intravenous99

I like this. I'm actually kinda glad to see there isn't a Seaplane Detachment SA on this vessel after all. Nice to see the class limit of 1, and I'd say that given the strong SAs she has that a cost of 22 is about right.

Originally posted by Capt. Strange

Not a fan of the Scout Cruiser 2 SA seems too powerful and generally unnecessary, also a tad to "power creepish" for me.

I'd much prefer the team stick to existing SAs in this case. There are plenty to choose from that represent her capabilities.

Originally posted by Grgbobe

Very interesting proposal. I like it...while more powerful than Tone, it certainly will also get a bigger target on its back!

Originally posted by Solomiranthius

Costing of Japanese LL cruisers were messed up by Haguro. We've had to deal with that since then. But I like to see Nachi as kind of a reasonable base for costing.

Aoba is tricky (b/c of its SA), the original Mogami did not have Determination (just Tough Cruiser and Bad Luck), and Myoko is a horrible set 1 cost (recosts typically drop it at least four points to 20). Also, Scout Planes SA (for torps) does not have a counter that can be attacked in the RAW. That may be a house rule... but there is no mechanism within the game to do so.

Chikuma is a pretty well known entity so not a bad comparison. She is a requirement in any LL build, so she can sometimes seem to carry more weigh then her cost justifies, but that also often means keeping her out of the fray until late, limiting her impact.

Side by side comparison to Chikuma, Chikuma gets the edge.

Gunnery:
They have similar mains/seconds when factoring in the SAs (granted these SAs may not always be used on the ships they are firing at, but that is mostly irrelevant to this discussion).

Mogami: Mains 8/8/7/5 (9/9/8/6 with SA); Seconds 4/4/3 (5/5/4 with SA) - both mains and seconds could be boosted with the SA.

Chikuma: Mains 9/9/8/6 (10/10/9/7 v Destroyers); Seconds 4/4/3 (5/5/4 v Destroyers).

I will give this to Chikuma as a win, because while Mogami can get boosts against any ship, the mains will never be better than Chikuma (and could still be worse) while the seconds on both are likely to target Destroyers, giving Chikuma a natural boost while Mogami has to use its SA.

AA:
Mogami wins easily. As a typical backrow unit, AA Barrage is a nice help. But it has to be against a different target than the first AA, and it is only 5 dice. That's a 24% chance to abort a typical 5 armor bomber (44% against 4 armor). If I am doing the math right, between both attacks there is about a 63.5% chance of aborting one 5 armor unit and a 12.5% chance of aborting two.

For comparison, 8 AA dice will abort a 5 armor plane 64% of the time, so 7 AA + 5 AA is roughly on par with 8 dice. I will give the edge to the 7 + AA Barrage b/c there is that added small chance to abort two planes despite the need to target two different ones (usually this is going to be possible). Both have small chances of splashing 9 vital (3% for 7 dice, 7% for 8) so that is also a consideration, but again it is small.

I still really like AA Barrage, and it should be a boost in cost roughly equivalent with giving 8 AA. But it is not the be all and end all.

Torpedoes:
This is like Gunnery, in that Mogami has a better natural line, but the SA of Chikuma gives it a better line overall.

Mogami: 3/3/2/1
Chikuma: 3/2/1/1 (4/3/2/2 with SA)

It is close, but maybe unlike the Scout Cruiser SA, when Chikuma is within torpedo range, she is probably going to be targeting a prime unit. Whereas, Mogami may be shooting at a lesser target than what it scouted.

Scout Cruiser 2 v. Scout Planes:
Both help air and surface builds that use either gunnery or torps. But Scout Planes also helps sub builds. So that gives Scout Planes an immediate boost over Scout Cruiser--typically a greater impact.

Adding 1 torpedo also is usually a bigger impact than adding 1 gunnery dice, especially for longlance units.

E.g., 16 dice gunnery versus 9 armor / 15 vital. Hit = 76% chance; vital = 10%.
Boost by one dice to 17, the percentages change to: Hit = 82%, vital = 15%.

1 torp dice = 17% (1 success); 2 torp dice = 31% (1 success), 3% (2 successes); 3 torp dice = 42% (1 success), 7% (2 successes), ~0.5% (3 successes); 4 torp dice = 52% (1 success), 13% (2 successes), 2% (3 successes), 0.08% (4 successes)

The boost to a vital shot cannot be ignored for gunnery as at some dice numbers it may increase by over 10%, but overall those torps are going to be doing more for you, and in IJN builds, there are usually more decent torp shots that matter than gunnery shots that matter.

What Mogami is going to most likely do is mess with groupings a little. I may not put both my BBs or carriers in one sector.

The feeling I get is that Scout Cruiser 2 is probably relatively comparable to Scout Planes, but because of the added flexibility, especially for bomber builds, I may give the edge to SC2.

Overall:
That was kind of rambling, but overall I think Mogami does come out ahead--mainly for the AA Barrage SA. But it is not by much, so a 1 point increase over Chikuma is probably all that is warranted. You can get the same Gunnery boost impact with two Gotlands at 20 points. There are some trade offs or advantages to that approach, but overall, the Mogami is probably a better bet.

The cost seems ok to me.

Originally posted by Heavygear



I did also came to the same conclusion

Originally posted by Brigman

I don't know. Seems kind of interesting to me. It did carry twice as many planes as Tone/Chikuma.