S13 and ShCh307

admiralduncan
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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 23, 2022 10:45:06 GMT

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Post by admiralduncan on Aug 23, 2022 10:45:06 GMT

These two are both 8 points. They are almost identical with S13 having Auxiliary Hunter instead of Shch's Sub-Killer. But S13 has an extra hull point. Either S13 is under costed or Shch307 is over costed? I am thinking the former.

Looking at the ORP Wilk sub in the custom cards section, this is basically the same as S13 and is 10 points. So what should S13 be, 9 or 10 points? I think 9.

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 8,367	S13 and ShCh307 Aug 23, 2022 11:48:05 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Aug 23, 2022 11:48:05 GMT I dont think i've ever triggered aux hunter on the s13, but sub-killer is effective in many games i've played. Especially with weak soviet asw

admiralduncan
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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 23, 2022 13:44:12 GMT

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Post by admiralduncan on Aug 23, 2022 13:44:12 GMT

Aug 23, 2022 11:48:05 GMT flakstruk said:

I dont think i've ever triggered aux hunter on the s13, but sub-killer is effective in many games i've played. Especially with weak soviet asw

Right, so you think Sub-killer = Aux Hunter + Hull point, and that S13 is therefore correctly costed.
What's your take please on these following two instances where each sub is 10 points, i.e 2 points higher than both Soviet subs:
1) Sub-Hunter v Mines + Hull Point (Wilk Custom card).
2) Sub-Hunter v Elusive Quarry + Hull point (Zbik Custom card).
Your input is much appreciated thanks.

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mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,164	S13 and ShCh307 Aug 23, 2022 21:02:04 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Aug 23, 2022 21:02:04 GMT S-13 is definitely a round-down. What subs are under 10 points with 2 Hull points? Casabianca with no Submerged Shot - 9 points S-13 That’s it. This especially looks bad when S-13 and S-37 came out in consecutive sets.
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admiralduncan
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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 24, 2022 7:30:47 GMT

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Post by admiralduncan on Aug 24, 2022 7:30:47 GMT

Aug 23, 2022 21:02:04 GMT mnnorthstars said:

S-13 is definitely a round-down. What subs are under 10 points with 2 Hull points?

Casabianca with no Submerged Shot - 9 points
S-13
That’s it.

This especially looks bad when S-13 and S-37 came out in consecutive sets.

3/5/2's are very rare. Loads of 3/5/1 and 3/6/2.
Personally I think 9 points would have been right for S13.
As to Wilk and Zbik (Custom cards), do you think 9 would have been better for them, especially compared to S13's 8 costing?

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 8,367	S13 and ShCh307 Aug 24, 2022 8:08:17 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Aug 24, 2022 8:08:17 GMT I think torpedo loadout factors into price more so than hull.

admiralduncan Forumini Ensign Posts: 169	S13 and ShCh307 Aug 24, 2022 8:28:53 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by admiralduncan on Aug 24, 2022 8:28:53 GMT Aug 24, 2022 8:08:17 GMT flakstruk said: I think torpedo loadout factors into price more so than hull. Definitely, but as all the units I'm discussing have 2/2/1, the differences come down to Hull and SA's.
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mnnorthstars
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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 24, 2022 20:32:07 GMT

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Post by mnnorthstars on Aug 24, 2022 20:32:07 GMT

I think 10 is appropriate for both of those custom cards. The floor for a fully-functional 2-Hull sub is 10, and S-13 is the outlier. Just like you don’t consider Haguro a reliable source for costing, S-13 is a poor benchmark for costing subs. The rest of the subs in the game make them both look like 10-pointers.

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flakstruk
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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 24, 2022 23:50:59 GMT

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Post by flakstruk on Aug 24, 2022 23:50:59 GMT

Aug 24, 2022 8:28:53 GMT admiralduncan said:

Aug 24, 2022 8:08:17 GMT flakstruk said:

I think torpedo loadout factors into price more so than hull.

Definitely, but as all the units I'm discussing have 2/2/1, the differences come down to Hull and SA's.

I think youre over valuing that hullpoint. Between submerged shot and low overall vital values the ability tank a asw hit isnt as important as being able to hit befire youre sunk.

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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 25, 2022 8:09:54 GMT

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Post by admiralduncan on Aug 25, 2022 8:09:54 GMT

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but regardless, you are of the opinion that S-13 is correctly pointed, and I can accept that.

So now lets take Shch307 out of the picture and compare S-13 to the Zbik and Wilk custom cards. These two both have exactly the same stats as S-13. The only differences are as follows:

1) S-13 has Aux Hunter and is 8 points.

2) Wilk has Elusive quarry and is 10 points.

3) Zbik has Mines and is 10 points.

Do you think Elusive Quarry and/or Mines are worth 2 points over Aux Hunter? i.e. Should one, or both, be reduced by 1 or 2 points?

Last Edit: Aug 25, 2022 8:11:38 GMT by admiralduncan

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 8,367	S13 and ShCh307 Aug 25, 2022 14:05:39 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Aug 25, 2022 14:05:39 GMT My assessmwnt is theyre probably really worth just over 9, but were rolled up

weedsrock2
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S13 and ShCh307 Aug 28, 2022 20:16:23 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Aug 28, 2022 20:16:23 GMT

Aug 24, 2022 20:32:07 GMT mnnorthstars said:

I think 10 is appropriate for both of those custom cards. The floor for a fully-functional 2-Hull sub is 10, and S-13 is the outlier. Just like you don’t consider Haguro a reliable source for costing, S-13 is a poor benchmark for costing subs. The rest of the subs in the game make them both look like 10-pointers.

But the Hull 5 differentiates that.

I agree they both could arguably be 9, but neither of them is a devastating sub.

There is definitely a slight "benefit of the doubt" factor when doing Soviet units. Overall, the Soviet navy in WWII was so bad (equipment and training) it wouldn't hold up if the units were costed without a slight bias IMO. RB started it and we sort-of continued it except for aircraft. There was definitely more of a "round down" philosophy for the Soviets than for others. Over the course of the early decks it was apparent that our teams were too conservative and tended to "round up" when we shouldn't. So "rounding down" became more of the default "when in doubt." But Soviet ships and subs pretty much always had a "round down" philosophy.

So for other countries 9. For the Soviets 8.

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Post by admiralduncan on Aug 23, 2022 10:45:06 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Aug 23, 2022 11:48:05 GMT

Post by admiralduncan on Aug 23, 2022 13:44:12 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Aug 23, 2022 21:02:04 GMT

Post by admiralduncan on Aug 24, 2022 7:30:47 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Aug 24, 2022 8:08:17 GMT

Post by admiralduncan on Aug 24, 2022 8:28:53 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Aug 24, 2022 20:32:07 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Aug 24, 2022 23:50:59 GMT

Post by admiralduncan on Aug 25, 2022 8:09:54 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Aug 25, 2022 14:05:39 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Aug 28, 2022 20:16:23 GMT

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