P1Y Frances **Done**

CommanderSam Forumini Ensign Posts: 232	P1Y Frances Done Apr 6, 2021 8:22:29 GMT Theaetetus likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by CommanderSam on Apr 6, 2021 8:22:29 GMT Apr 5, 2021 23:35:48 GMT weedsrock2 said: Anyone want to write the flavor text for this one? I'll Jump in, to put my 2 cents in this set, if everyone is OK That's a plane I had been expecting for long.

weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	P1Y Frances Done Apr 7, 2021 0:29:58 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 7, 2021 0:29:58 GMT Go for it! Thanks!
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ticat1
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 23, 2021 13:17:40 GMT via mobile

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Post by ticat1 on Apr 23, 2021 13:17:40 GMT

Apr 6, 2021 8:22:29 GMT CommanderSam said:

Apr 5, 2021 23:35:48 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Anyone want to write the flavor text for this one?

I'll Jump in, to put my 2 cents in this set, if everyone is OK

That's a plane I had been expecting for long.

How's the text coming along?

To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high.
-In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

iowaforever Forumini Rear Admiral Posts: 3,686	P1Y Frances Done Apr 23, 2021 14:13:47 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by iowaforever on Apr 23, 2021 14:13:47 GMT If it's not too late, maybe change the name of the Ranged torpedo attack to Harass From A Distance, to line up with the B6N Jill which has similar stats?
	Last Edit: Apr 23, 2021 14:14:04 GMT by iowaforever The man who gets beat down isn't the loser. The guy who can't tough it out to the end, he's the one who loses.

flakstruk
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 23, 2021 14:41:29 GMT

Quote

Post by flakstruk on Apr 23, 2021 14:41:29 GMT

Dec 9, 2020 2:16:43 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Actually, that makes sense. "Harass from a Distance" was needed because RB wanted to specify "Expert Torpedoes" couldn't be used to increase the number of torps on the ranged attack. That isn't an issue for a Patrol Bomber.

But 3/1 puts it in TBF Avenger range which I see frequently making 5 torp attacks at range 0.

With a torpedo attack line of 3/1 and "Excellent Endurance" I think this would definitely be a 12 pointer. It is almost always going to be paired with a Chikuma and an Emily which would make it a 5/3. That is pretty devastating.

How about this?

Ranged Torpedo Attack - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. This unit rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks at range 1.

Revised to:

Ranged Torpedo Attack - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. When this unit makes a range 1 attack, that attack can't benefit from Special Abilities.

iowaforever
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 23, 2021 15:00:15 GMT

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Post by iowaforever on Apr 23, 2021 15:00:15 GMT

Apr 23, 2021 14:41:29 GMT flakstruk said:

Dec 9, 2020 2:16:43 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Actually, that makes sense. "Harass from a Distance" was needed because RB wanted to specify "Expert Torpedoes" couldn't be used to increase the number of torps on the ranged attack. That isn't an issue for a Patrol Bomber.

But 3/1 puts it in TBF Avenger range which I see frequently making 5 torp attacks at range 0.

With a torpedo attack line of 3/1 and "Excellent Endurance" I think this would definitely be a 12 pointer. It is almost always going to be paired with a Chikuma and an Emily which would make it a 5/3. That is pretty devastating.

How about this?

Ranged Torpedo Attack - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. This unit rolls one less attack die when making Torpedo attacks at range 1.

Revised to:

Ranged Torpedo Attack - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. When this unit makes a range 1 attack, that attack can't benefit from Special Abilities.

Didn't see that. Ignore me

The man who gets beat down isn't the loser. The guy who can't tough it out to the end, he's the one who loses.

brigman Forumini Admiral Posts: 14,196	P1Y Frances Done Apr 23, 2021 16:06:40 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by brigman on Apr 23, 2021 16:06:40 GMT I don't see why we're nerfing it to not benefit from the Emily at range 1; the Jill certainly can.

weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	P1Y Frances Done Apr 24, 2021 4:47:49 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 24, 2021 4:47:49 GMT Apr 23, 2021 16:06:40 GMT brigman said: I don't see why we're nerfing it to not benefit from the Emily at range 1; the Jill certainly can. Scroll through page 10
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brigman
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 24, 2021 15:29:07 GMT

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Post by brigman on Apr 24, 2021 15:29:07 GMT

Wow, I guess that's what I get for not paying attention.

It's a versatile plane, but 13 points is way too much for what it does. And nerfing the range-1 attack so it can't benefit from the Emily is a wrecker. At 11 points it might see some use; at 13, I'd never take it when I could just take a Jill for 1 more point, doing everything better.

Last Edit: Apr 24, 2021 15:30:27 GMT by brigman

ticat1
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 24, 2021 17:16:21 GMT via mobile

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Post by ticat1 on Apr 24, 2021 17:16:21 GMT

Apr 24, 2021 15:29:07 GMT brigman said:

Wow, I guess that's what I get for not paying attention.

It's a versatile plane, but 13 points is way too much for what it does. And nerfing the range-1 attack so it can't benefit from the Emily is a wrecker. At 11 points it might see some use; at 13, I'd never take it when I could just take a Jill for 1 more point, doing everything better.

The Jill only has torps. This also has a bomb 8 and EE.

If you're flying the Jill off the LAB, is it still better?

To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high.
-In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

ticat1 Moderator "Ready, Aye, Ready" Posts: 1,363	P1Y Frances Done Apr 24, 2021 17:45:08 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by ticat1 on Apr 24, 2021 17:45:08 GMT That wasn't supposed to sound sarcastic, lol. It it came across like that, I apologize.
	To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high. -In Flanders Fields. John McCrea

brigman Forumini Admiral Posts: 14,196	P1Y Frances Done Apr 24, 2021 18:32:42 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by brigman on Apr 24, 2021 18:32:42 GMT Not entirely true. The Jill has a 10-die bomb attack - once - thanks to its kamikaze attack. And it has 3 ASW. And no worries about sarcasm!

weedsrock2
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 25, 2021 2:48:40 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 25, 2021 2:48:40 GMT

Apr 24, 2021 18:32:42 GMT brigman said:

Not entirely true. The Jill has a 10-die bomb attack - once - thanks to its kamikaze attack. And it has 3 ASW.

And no worries about sarcasm!

The 3 ASW is definitely a plus in the Jill's favor since it is rare for the IJN, but it is expensive to get. A bomb attack that destroys the unit is definitely not as good as a regular bomb attack. Excellent Endurance gives it the ability to go two turns consecutively and that is almost always most useful the first two turns of a standard 100-200 point game anyway.

All of that said, I think there is a certain negative cost to "jack-of-all-trades" units as well. You can generally only use one attack and/or SA per turn. Flexibility pays off best when you don't know what your opponents may bring which is especially the case in multiple round tournament play.

So what are you saying? You want a land-based patrol bomber that is actually useful for competitive play other than some of the flying boats?

I think the cost is on the 12-13 bubble and it got rounded up.

Closest comparisons I can find

Wellington GR - 3 torp, 3 ASW, 7 bomb, 4/7/1 armor , EE, LDA - 10 points

Peggy - 2 torp, 0 ASW, 6 bomb, 5/8/1 armor, EE, LDA - 10 points

SM..79 Sparviero - 3 torp, 0 ASW, 0 bomb, 5/8/1 armor, Torpedo Swarm, Finish Him Off - 11 points

Frances - 2/1 torp, 0 ASW, 8 bomb, 5/8/1 armor, EE, Ranged Torpedo, Kamikaze - 13 points

Up to now the most expensive Patrol Bombers are the Sparviero and the Greif at 11 points. Of course, I consider the Greif to be broken and our club has banned it. If any Patrol Bomber should be 13 to 14 pts it is the Greif. Range 1 aircraft attacks are very powerful because there are very limited options to stop them. I don't know the mathematics off hand, but overall I would rather someone was attacking me with one torpedo than 12 bomb dice.

Anyway, the Frances does look a bit pricey at 13 points. Is it really the best Patrol Bomber in the game? If so, by two points?

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mnnorthstars
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P1Y Frances **Done** Apr 25, 2021 3:42:09 GMT

Quote

Post by mnnorthstars on Apr 25, 2021 3:42:09 GMT

Sparviero is a high bar.

A torpedo attack does 2 damage 16.67% of the time. A 12-dice attack does 1 damage at the following rates vs. these armor values:

3 - 99% - hit a cruiser
4 - 97% - hit a fleet carrier
5 - 92% - hit a heavily armored cruiser or carrier
6 - 83% - hit Georgios Averof
7 - 71% - hit Renown
8 - 56% - hit a standard battleship
9 - 41% - hit a modern battleship, vital a cruiser
10 - 28% - hit Montana, vital an antebellum carrier
11 - 17% - vital an Essex
12 - 9% - vital Texas
13 - 4% - vital Dunkerque
14 - 2% - vital a standard battleship

12 dice vitals a carrier at the same rate that a single torpedo records a hit vs. Torpedo Defense.

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brigman Forumini Admiral Posts: 14,196	P1Y Frances Done Apr 25, 2021 4:33:48 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by brigman on Apr 25, 2021 4:33:48 GMT Sparviero is an official unit and shouldn't be out of bounds for "the bar". By that benchmark, this unit is pretty bad.

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P1Y Frances Done

Post by CommanderSam on Apr 6, 2021 8:22:29 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 7, 2021 0:29:58 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Apr 23, 2021 13:17:40 GMT

Post by iowaforever on Apr 23, 2021 14:13:47 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Apr 23, 2021 14:41:29 GMT

Post by iowaforever on Apr 23, 2021 15:00:15 GMT

Post by brigman on Apr 23, 2021 16:06:40 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 24, 2021 4:47:49 GMT

Post by brigman on Apr 24, 2021 15:29:07 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Apr 24, 2021 17:16:21 GMT

Post by ticat1 on Apr 24, 2021 17:45:08 GMT

Post by brigman on Apr 24, 2021 18:32:42 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Apr 25, 2021 2:48:40 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Apr 25, 2021 3:42:09 GMT

Post by brigman on Apr 25, 2021 4:33:48 GMT

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