The Sea Basing rules are pretty tricky if you really look at them. If you don't have any islands then your limit is 4 aircraft times the number of deployment sectors you have. That could be a lot. However, if your side of the map has even one island then that is the limit. More islands would equal more aircraft. If the Rulebook rules are used to roll for one of the maps randomly, you could end up with some Sea Basing aircraft ditching in the water before the game even starts if you bring more than eight. But in practice, I think the unit limit to fleet builds works fairly well to keep Sea Basing aircraft numbers in check. Also, I just looked at the wording of that SA again and noticed it says "This aircraft can only base on a coast ...." So the carrier landing issue is moot.
Overall, I think SWO's observations point better toward this particular aircraft being a Patrol Bomber. As he said, it gives it a better chance at night and allows it to be escorted. This is going to be a very vulnerable aircraft if an enemy fighter comes along. I am still very comfortable with the Ar 196 being classed as a fighter because it has more attack potential.
Also, I think the armor values on this should be 3/4/1. The top speed of 135 mph is much slower than the Ar 196 with a 193 mph max speed.
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So it is shaping up to look like this. Just to summarize all this so we can discuss it more easily.
Walrus Maker: Supermarine Introduced: Summer, 1936 Wingspan: 45 ft 10 in Length: 37 ft 7 in Speed: 135 mph, 217 km/h at 4,750 ft Forumini Speed: 8 Service Ceiling: 18 500 ft Armament: 2 x 7.7mm Vickers MG, 6 x 45kg bombs or 2 x 110kg bombs or 2 x 110 kg depth charges
Sea Basing - This unit can base only in a coast or an island sector on your side of the map. Don't place a Rearming counter on this unit during your Air Return step. Spotter - At the beginning of your Air Attack step, you may choose an enemy Ship within range 2. Your Ships roll one extra attack die when attacking that ship at range 2 or greater with their main Gunnery attack this turn. Air Recon - +1 initiative if you control a ship with an Extended Range SA.
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Patrol Bomber (and the associated ability to be Escorted) make this unit a lot more attractive. Like you Weeds, I'm not a big fan of the initiative boost. In fact, it could end up hurting this unit's utility in low initiative UK smoker builds (already challenging because many of their big BBs have a +1 Flag).
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones
SWO makes an excellent point as to why he called his A Patrol Bomber the Kiss factor and Escorting are attractive;
But to me it breaks with tradition ; we have three types of air units Fighter; Bomber; Patrol Bomber
We type units by what they are even in the case of the zero Kamikaze; Fighter with no AA
This is not a Patrol Bomber; giving it the +3 Long Distance Game Search, the benefit of every turn use; additional units against the airfield cap;
and now it can be escorted by cheap fighters with the space you save on the airfield, and your going to have to cost this thing near to the
JU 52 about 4 points for a PB's!!
Patrol Bomber does seem the closest way to type it; but i think if you go that way it needs some limitations.
Drop the AIR Recon and give it an Escort limitation. If the Attacking Fighters AA is Greater than the Escort AA no benefit or something.
Don't get me wrong, the cost changes significantly if these things can be escorted and they get the Patrol Bombers edge in Night placement. I costed mine at 6-7. I wouldn't dream of making such a plane a "3".
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones
I would be happy to drop the recon and just throw in rescue ops. I know its a meh ability but I think spotter is the main thing and Re.ops. is a nod to the history of this and wouldn't add much to the cost value.
SWO's Walrus/Seagull cards do get a lot of use for me. I re-costed them to around 5 I think and this certainly gives them more game time. Boosting big guns with spotter can make a difference and even if they don' last long, they can still tie up your opponents fighters. Night use and maybe placing last with numerical aircraft advantage helps.
I do like the sound of flaks swordfish though! I probably would take this fresh over!
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I agree with Gaz01 on replacing the Air Recon with Rescue Ops. It would also keep the points down and give an opportunity for the unit to earn its points (or at least partially) back.
I am neutral to the idea of making the unit a PB instead of a fighter... I can see both sides and haven't been swayed to either side of the fence yet.
Last Edit: Jul 29, 2020 19:15:20 GMT by au64: Meant to type Air Recon instead of spotter... corrected the text above.
Rescue Operations is currently a ship SA. The way AU64 worded it doesn't work for me. The "memory requirement" for tracking a destroyed ship the previous turn is way beyond KISS for me.
RESCUE OPERATIONS: Once per game, instead of attacking during your Surface Attack step, this unit can perform a rescue mission if it's in a sector where a friendly Ship was destroyed. Score 3 victory points at the end of the turn.(St. Laurent)
Au64 proposal:
Air Rescue - Once per game, instead of attacking during your Air Attack step, this unit can perform a rescue mission if it's in a sector where a friendly ship was destroyed the previous turn. Score 3 victory points at the end of the turn.
I would suggest allowing it to rescue without eliminating the attack.
weeds revision:
Air Rescue - Once per game, this unit can perform a rescue mission if it's in a sector where a friendly ship was destroyed during the turn. Score 3 victory points at the end of the turn.
I guess the way it would work is you would get the 3 VCs if your Walrus is in the same sector as a friendly ship is destroyed during any of the attack phases. It's a little odd, but it isn't likely to be triggered very often anyway.
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I don't see a reason to replace this with a Swordfish floatplane. It is what it is.
I am not wedded to fighter or patrol bomber. There really isn't a "precedent" here. The Beaufighter is twin engine but still a fighter. Whichever category we decide I would rather not have to include exceptions and clarifications. I think we just need to decide which category gives it the characteristics we want (or can live with) and let the Rulebook do its job. Whenever we start trying to essentially create a new unit type with SAs we end up with a mess.
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Beaufighter is a fighter, just like p38 and bf110.
Point is a patrol bombers are long endurance multi-engined aircraft
Should really be a dive bomber given that its strikes were of that type. Its likely that aircrew rescues in contested airspace would be escorted
Edit- the myrt shouldnt be used to justify this as a fighter as one of myrts defining characteristic was speed. Which only the best fighters could match. Myrt was also a recon aircraft where as this is a gunfire spotter