Best Carriers in the world.

Fear God & Dreadnought!
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 1:35:17 GMT

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Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 1:35:17 GMT

"The Shokaku/Yorktown Classes and Ark Royal were the premier carriers and carrier designs of early carrier warfare."

The Japanese counterparts to the Yorktown class and Ark Royal would be Soryu and Hiryu, not the Shokaku class. The Shokaku class was designed free of treaty limitations and are in effect a different generation of carriers than the others.

Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."

"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

Skylord17 Forumini Ensign ~ Posts: 120	Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 1:44:00 GMT via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Skylord17 on Apr 16, 2017 1:44:00 GMT The Lexingtons were Very defensive ship, they were able to carry up to 86 aircraft. tge also had all of the USN Doctrine behind them, along with the deadly SBD.
	Unryuu <3

Fear God & Dreadnought! Forumini Captain Naval and Russian history buff. Obsessed with the Russo-Japanese War. Posts: 2,049	Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 1:58:32 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 1:58:32 GMT If the aircraft carried by the carrier are a factor in the choice of best carrier (they should, in theory, be the primary factor) then this contest should only be between the American and Japanese carriers.
	Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher." "It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

Fear God & Dreadnought! Forumini Captain Naval and Russian history buff. Obsessed with the Russo-Japanese War. Posts: 2,049	Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 2:00:15 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 2:00:15 GMT Also, what do you mean by "The Lexingtons were very defensive ship?"
	Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher." "It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

waratsea4
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 3:38:11 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Apr 16, 2017 3:38:11 GMT

Apr 16, 2017 1:44:00 GMT Skylord17 said:

The Lexingtons were Very defensive ship, they were able to carry up to 86 aircraft. tge also had all of the USN Doctrine behind them, along with the deadly SBD.

USN doctrine was by no means anything near what your saying in 1941 or 42. In Midway alone they couldn't coordinate their launches from a single carrier; let alone get the fighters to cover either the TB's or DB's.
Dauntless was a good plane but i think you have give some credit to very poor IJN damage control

waratsea4
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 3:44:27 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Apr 16, 2017 3:44:27 GMT

Apr 16, 2017 2:00:15 GMT Fear God & Dreadnought! said:

Also, what do you mean by "The Lexingtons were very defensive ship?"

I think most player here just love that 5-12-5; yet in the real world those WAS 5 hull CV's didn't fair to well.
Lady Lex and Sister Sara had their torpedo protection; but i don't know game wise if they should be 5 hull pts. Along with Kaga
They have their guide lines around here and no other factors matter.

Fear God & Dreadnought! Forumini Captain Naval and Russian history buff. Obsessed with the Russo-Japanese War. Posts: 2,049	Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 4:49:14 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 4:49:14 GMT So now the Yorktown beats the Shokaku by four votes, and people think that Ark Royal is also superior. Can the people who voted for these ships explain their thinking?
	Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher." "It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

Swizzle
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 21:05:17 GMT

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Post by Swizzle on Apr 16, 2017 21:05:17 GMT

Apr 15, 2017 22:33:51 GMT waratsea4 said:

Apr 15, 2017 16:44:51 GMT Swizzle said:

With all due respect to that Naval Historian (may have been British), her air capacity was also a very limiting feature. Yes, she was well designed, but a Lexington vs. Ark Royal battle is no battle at all. The question did not ask "ton-for-ton", but just "best". Of course, these are all "opinions", as is mine.

P.S. Yes, I'm American!

I'm American too; but heres were i think he's right;
I'm not even going to put any BC turned into CV in that category and i'm not looking at game stats;; if you wanted a whole fleet of those be my guest.
The Shokaku /Yorktown Classes and Ark Royal were the premier carriers and carrier designs of early carrier warfare, what really separates them is doctrine more than anything else.
The British always found away to reinvent the weapons of war and the carrier was no exception, the IJN had better carrier planes than the USN but doctrine cost them;; The USN had better carrier planes than the UK;
The author clearly stated its weakness was in its air groups but as a carrier with those weaknesses it still fought well in a theater with little wiggle room not the vastness of the Pacific.
The UK in the early war led the way with weapons innovation and technology i'm sure you know about the Tizard Box; I personally would not under estimate them.

I'm not looking at game stats, I'm talking about the real things. You are entitled to think that a small capacity, 22k ton carrier has it's advantages. It does. However, I'd rather be aboard the one you dis instead. Again, a Lex whoops an Ark Royal in game and real life anytime. Airwing and doctrine are what you have when you go fight.

The question did not ask "Best design", did it?

Großadmiral Swizzle

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nagato01
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 16, 2017 21:32:11 GMT via mobile

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Post by nagato01 on Apr 16, 2017 21:32:11 GMT

In multiple books I've also read that Ark Royal was also lost due to poor design in addition to her captain panicking. Besides that's, it's also quoted that she was lost due to an insufficient understanding of damage control, which falls under doctrine, which just makes the case worse for the Royal Navy, as if doctrine means abandoning ship rather than giving it your all to save it, your carrier isn't a good as ones from other nations.

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flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,816	Best Carriers in the world. Apr 17, 2017 0:01:41 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Apr 17, 2017 0:01:41 GMT While the Arks design had a flaw, the captain decision was motivated by the very heavy loss off life on the hms Corageous in similar circumstances in 1939. Conflating that to a doctrinal weakness is wrong

Fear God & Dreadnought!
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 17, 2017 0:24:59 GMT

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Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 17, 2017 0:24:59 GMT

I'm no expert on carriers, but here are the criteria I am looking at:
1. The air wing: the aircraft a carrier carry are obviously its most important asset. They are the weapon that will strike the enemy--far from visual range.
2. AA defense: the anti air weaponry of a carrier is vital to holding off enemy attacks, even with a strong fighter wing.
3. Damage control: this is key to the survivability of any warship. Mishandling volatile aviation fuels and other flammable compobuds can quickly have disastrous consequences in a combat situation.
4. Survivability: the ability of a vessel to take punishment has proven to be an extremely valuable asset for any major warship. This includes torpedo protection, armor (esp. deck armor), compartmentalization and hull size, etc.
5. Speed and range: the speed and range of a vessel are extremely important in assessing its tactical and strategical value.

Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."

"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

nagato01
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 17, 2017 0:55:39 GMT

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Post by nagato01 on Apr 17, 2017 0:55:39 GMT

In a Lexington vs Ark Royal battle, the results for the categories are the following (according to "Jacky" Fisher's Criteria:

1. Air Wing:

Ark Royal - 72 design, 50-60 in practice

Lexington - 78

Winner: Lexington

2. AA Defense:

Ark Royal - 16, 4.5 dual purpose guns. 32, 2 pounder (40 mm) AA. 32, 0.5 inch AA

Lexington - 8, 8 inch guns. 12, 5 inch dual purpose guns (more AA added later, not listed on Wikipedia Article)

Winner: Ark Royal

3. Damage Control:

Ark Royal - Mediocre

Lexington - Good

Winner: Lexington

4. Survivability:

Ark Royal - Good (strong hull, but still a treaty carrier)

Lexington - Excellent (A result of battlecruiser lineage)

Winner: Lexington

5. Speed and Range

Ark Royal - 31 knot top speed, operational range of 7,600 Nautical Miles at 20 knots

Lexington - 33.25 knot top speed, operational range of 10,000 nautical miles at 10 knots

Winner: Lexington

Overall Winner: Lexington, by a score of 4-1.

I think that is pretty conclusive right there.

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Fear God & Dreadnought!
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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 17, 2017 1:16:51 GMT

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Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 17, 2017 1:16:51 GMT

Apr 17, 2017 0:55:39 GMT nagato01 said:

In a Lexington vs Ark Royal battle, the results for the categories are the following (according to "Jacky" Fisher's Criteria:

1. Air Wing:

Ark Royal - 72 design, 50-60 in practice

Lexington - 78

Winner: Lexington

2. AA Defense:

Ark Royal - 16, 4.5 dual purpose guns. 32, 2 pounder (40 mm) AA. 32, 0.5 inch AA

Lexington - 8, 8 inch guns. 12, 5 inch dual purpose guns (more AA added later, not listed on Wikipedia Article)

Winner: Ark Royal

3. Damage Control:

Ark Royal - Mediocre

Lexington - Good

Winner: Lexington

4. Survivability:

Ark Royal - Good (strong hull, but still a treaty carrier)

Lexington - Excellent (A result of battlecruiser lineage)

Winner: Lexington

5. Speed and Range

Ark Royal - 31 knot top speed, operational range of 7,600 Nautical Miles at 20 knots

Lexington - 33.25 knot top speed, operational range of 10,000 nautical miles at 10 knots

Winner: Lexington

Overall Winner: Lexington, by a score of 4-1.

I think that is pretty conclusive right there.

Just as a question, why are you only comparing Lexington and Ark Royal? Yorktown and Shokaku are both more advanced designs, classes which incorporated lessons learned through experience gained through practice with earlier carriers (Lex and Sara, Akagi and Kaga, etc.). We are talking about the best carrier in 1941, not in 1935. Generation makes a big difference. Also, comparing the number of anti-aircraft guns or total weight/minute of the shells is pointless without considering the fire control systems that allowed them to track and hit a target. the Yorktown class was definitely superior to Shokaku in all of these respects and the radar on US ships was much better than that of the IJN.

Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."

"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

Fear God & Dreadnought!
Forumini Captain

Naval and Russian history buff. Obsessed with the Russo-Japanese War.

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Best Carriers in the world. Apr 17, 2017 1:22:48 GMT

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Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 17, 2017 1:22:48 GMT

Another thing; in terms of air wings, the only ships in this contest are the American and Japanese vessels. The performance of British carrier aircraft in 1941 certainly did not compare favorably with that of their American and Japanese counterparts.

Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."

"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington

flakstruk Deck E developer Posts: 9,816	Best Carriers in the world. Apr 17, 2017 4:52:28 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by flakstruk on Apr 17, 2017 4:52:28 GMT The bulk of 1941? When claude, buffaloes and devestators were front line aircraft?

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Best Carriers in the world.

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 1:35:17 GMT

Post by Skylord17 on Apr 16, 2017 1:44:00 GMT

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 1:58:32 GMT

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 2:00:15 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 16, 2017 3:38:11 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 16, 2017 3:44:27 GMT

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 16, 2017 4:49:14 GMT

Post by Swizzle on Apr 16, 2017 21:05:17 GMT

Post by nagato01 on Apr 16, 2017 21:32:11 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Apr 17, 2017 0:01:41 GMT

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 17, 2017 0:24:59 GMT

Post by nagato01 on Apr 17, 2017 0:55:39 GMT

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 17, 2017 1:16:51 GMT

Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Apr 17, 2017 1:22:48 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Apr 17, 2017 4:52:28 GMT

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