Japanese Submarine Torpedoes

RedOctober
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 22:06:59 GMT

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Post by RedOctober on Apr 6, 2017 22:06:59 GMT

Hi, I would like to raise a general question about IJN subs in the game. The I-201, Japan's most advanced attack submarine of WWII, was armed with the Type 95 torpedo, which was a submarine version of the extremely successful and powerful Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo used by surface vessels. Although the range of this torpedo was significantly less than that of the "Long Lance," the warhead was of very similar size, and, if I am correct, heavier on the mark 2 version. My question is this: why are IJN subs in the game, armed with this powerful torpedo, not given an SA like Long Lance Torpedoes? Since the warhead weights are of such similar destructive power, I think these should do three damage as well. All suggestions welcome.

mnnorthstars
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 22:23:03 GMT via mobile

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Post by mnnorthstars on Apr 6, 2017 22:23:03 GMT

I'd guess game balance and unit cost were at least partially the reasons. In the base set I-19 with LLT could have been very pricey. Regarding game balance, it'd be pretty hard to take out a long-lance sub before it could tear up pieces well above its tonnage.

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shinnentai
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 22:24:53 GMT

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Post by shinnentai on Apr 6, 2017 22:24:53 GMT

It's certainly a good point. Could be gameplay balance perhaps? Or as a nod towards subs still using the Type 92s a lot of the time? I also wonder if it simply came down to the game designers not realising early on that subs had these 21in torps available with comparable warheads to the 24in LLs?

Last Edit: Apr 6, 2017 22:25:43 GMT by shinnentai

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RedOctober Guest	Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 22:25:34 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by RedOctober on Apr 6, 2017 22:25:34 GMT That makes sense. I am asking more because I would like to alter the stats in my own WAS games, and was wondering what the consensus would be for historical accuracy. Perhaps this will be moved over to the custom card section.

nagato01
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 22:33:25 GMT

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Post by nagato01 on Apr 6, 2017 22:33:25 GMT

I always wondered why almost every IJN ship got LLT but the subs never did. It makes sense though, that these subs would have been able to do so much more damage that they probably could be considered more powerful than the U-Boats.

Looking at my recent thread about the I-26, this could have been the absolute killer to USN BBs and CVs.

Then again, maybe it would have been a good equalizer, as the USN air is pretty widely regarded as OP.

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RedOctober Guest	Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 22:39:02 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by RedOctober on Apr 6, 2017 22:39:02 GMT So if I was to edit the card for the I-201, I would cut its torpedo range to 2 and give it an SA for three damage per torp hit. By how much should I increase its cost?

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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 6, 2017 23:34:58 GMT

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Post by Swizzle on Apr 6, 2017 23:34:58 GMT

Good stats on all these torps at: www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTJAP_WWII.php

It seems that no 21" torpedo was big enough for the same warhead size as the 24" Type 93. In fact, many of the Japanese sub-launched torpedoes had the same warhead size as the American 21" torpedoes.

Last Edit: Apr 6, 2017 23:38:18 GMT by Swizzle

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RedOctober
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 7, 2017 0:22:38 GMT

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Post by RedOctober on Apr 7, 2017 0:22:38 GMT

Good stats on all these torps at: www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTJAP_WWII.php

It seems that no 21" torpedo was big enough for the same warhead size as the 24" Type 93. In fact, many of the Japanese sub-launched torpedoes had the same warhead size as the American 21" torpedoes.

I have to do more research, but according to this source (http://www.historynet.com/type-95-torpedo-the-long-lance-of-japans-submarine-fleet.htm), and a few others, the 21" Type 95 Mark 2, introduced in 1944, had a warhead of 1,200 lbs, which is larger than that of the 24" Type 93 "Long Lance" at 1,080 lbs. The range of the Type 95 is much less than that of the Type 93, but considering that the Type 95 is in essence just a submarine launched version of the Type 93, I think it is quite reasonable to give Japanese submarines with 21" torp tubes an SA like Long Lance Torpedoes in scenarios after 1944.

RedOctober
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 7, 2017 0:29:46 GMT

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Post by RedOctober on Apr 7, 2017 0:29:46 GMT

I just read through your source, and it clearly describes a torpedo of 53.3 cm (21") called the Type 95 Mk. 2, introduced into service in 1944, with a range of 6,000 yds. at 49-51 knots, and a powerful 1,213 lb. warhead (type 97, same as the Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo).

RedOctober Guest	Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 7, 2017 0:33:12 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by RedOctober on Apr 7, 2017 0:33:12 GMT Upon further reading, there is an earlier version with an identical warhead that was introduced into service in 1942.

Swizzle
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 7, 2017 12:06:23 GMT

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Post by Swizzle on Apr 7, 2017 12:06:23 GMT

Apr 7, 2017 0:29:46 GMT RedOctober said:

I just read through your source, and it clearly describes a torpedo of 53.3 cm (21") called the Type 95 Mk. 2, introduced into service in 1944, with a range of 6,000 yds. at 49-51 knots, and a powerful 1,213 lb. warhead (type 97, same as the Type 93 "Long Lance" torpedo).

Type 95 Model I: Range: 13,000 yards.
Type 95 Model II: Range: 8,200 yards.
Type 96: Range: 4,900 yards.

Just saying it's a much, much shorter range for that extra warhead. I hope no one is thinking doing extra damage at range-3!

Last Edit: Apr 7, 2017 12:20:58 GMT by Swizzle

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waratsea4
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 7, 2017 12:38:40 GMT

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Post by waratsea4 on Apr 7, 2017 12:38:40 GMT

I think mnnorthstar hit it on the head;
If you take a close look at IJN subs they aren't a bad value for what you get; just compare; you get R3 and good defensive lines with the RO's you've got R3 at a competitive cost;
I think if you add 3 hull pts. of damage even at a shortened range it adds an unrealistic burden of cost to the subs and game play.
IJN DD's and Cruisers already have it with LL;; also historically subs did have their moments and periods where they excelled but i don't think the game needs it if every build;
Probably fun for House Ruling and experimenting with but for me not in the rules

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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 8, 2017 2:25:49 GMT Swizzle and cevguy like this

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Post by Striker on Apr 8, 2017 2:25:49 GMT

This could be good for a future SA.

Type 95MkII - OPG you can make a range 1 torpedo attack. If this attack hits it does 1 point of extra damage.

or...

Type 95MkII - When this unit makes a range 1 torpedo attack it does 1 point of extra damage.

The second idea is for those that are over OPG SA's.

Last Edit: Apr 8, 2017 2:29:02 GMT by Striker

Swizzle
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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes Apr 8, 2017 18:43:58 GMT

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Post by Swizzle on Apr 8, 2017 18:43:58 GMT

Apr 8, 2017 2:25:49 GMT Striker said:

This could be good for a future SA.

Type 95MkII - OPG you can make a range 1 torpedo attack. If this attack hits it does 1 point of extra damage.
or...
Type 95MkII - When this unit makes a range 1 torpedo attack it does 1 point of extra damage.

The second idea is for those that are over OPG SA's.

That's very workable. As an SA, this would be on a card dated 1944 or later, like the OPG German homing torpedoes in deck 5, and it may read more like:

Type 95MkII - OPG before your roll a range 1 torpedo attack, you may announce you are using the Type 95MkII torpedo for this attack. If it hits, it does 1 extra point of hull damage.

Wording could be shorterned.
(Should be announced BEFORE the dice are rolled.)

Last Edit: Apr 8, 2017 19:00:46 GMT by Swizzle

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Japanese Submarine Torpedoes

Post by RedOctober on Apr 6, 2017 22:06:59 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Apr 6, 2017 22:23:03 GMT

Post by shinnentai on Apr 6, 2017 22:24:53 GMT

Post by RedOctober on Apr 6, 2017 22:25:34 GMT

Post by nagato01 on Apr 6, 2017 22:33:25 GMT

Post by RedOctober on Apr 6, 2017 22:39:02 GMT

Post by Swizzle on Apr 6, 2017 23:34:58 GMT

Post by RedOctober on Apr 7, 2017 0:22:38 GMT

Post by RedOctober on Apr 7, 2017 0:29:46 GMT

Post by RedOctober on Apr 7, 2017 0:33:12 GMT

Post by Swizzle on Apr 7, 2017 12:06:23 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Apr 7, 2017 12:38:40 GMT

Post by Striker on Apr 8, 2017 2:25:49 GMT

Post by Swizzle on Apr 8, 2017 18:43:58 GMT

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