Finally got to play last weekend for the first time in over a year! Played Germany a couple games and while doing my fleet builds I kept coming back to what a disaster Fi 167 is.... I know luck_Y did those set 1 recostings and they have become standard in my fleet binders. Have we given any serious thought to recosting some of these units that are completely obsolete?
Finally got to play last weekend for the first time in over a year! Played Germany a couple games and while doing my fleet builds I kept coming back to what a disaster Fi 167 is.... I know luck_Y did those set 1 recostings and they have become standard in my fleet binders. Have we given any serious thought to recosting some of these units that are completely obsolete?
I don't think a re-costing is going to help the Fi 167. With the power inflation in AA values over the course of the sets and decks, and the huge selection of fighter aircraft we now have I don't think any aircraft with armor 4 or less has much chance of getting through to accomplish anything.
The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care" Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!
1939: -2 on all aa attacks 1940: -1 1942: no penalty
Complexity.
However, just the notion that something like that is needed says a lot about the issue. Unfortunately, an umbrella correction like that unevenly hits some already weak units the wrong way. Some units were done "correctly" in the first place and they will suffer. So we are "darned if we do and darned if we don't."
There is no way to get it all right in a game like this where units are introduced over a span of time. Even games that start out with "everything in the box/rulebook" inevitably have some issues no matter how much playtesting you do. The problem with trying to redo old units is at least a few of them will be done wrong too. Then as more decks/sets come out even the redone cards get out of whack again. It's like squeezing a balloon.
And the complexity of a bunch of errata in game is off-putting to a lot of potential players and a big barrier to getting new players. This is always one of my biggest concerns. WotC understood this and I think that was a big part of the success of WaS. A game isn't simple and fast if I have to review 5 pages of errata and print a bunch of replacement cards. Nothings says "This is a private club and we don't want you" if you aren't willing to go through a complex initiation and learn a book of special rules like a bunch of errata and game modifications.
Also, costing alone can't solve all problems. This is a big one that too many people overlook IMO. Some stats are just too low or too high to work within the game boundaries at any cost. The units with exceptionally low stats collect dust, and the units with exceptionally high stats break the game. At the low end even a 0 cost won't get a poor unit in the game because it is wasting a slot in your fleet if you are at the unit limit. At the high end only a costing so high that it effectively makes the unit unplayable is high enough. In other words, the over powerful unit needs to be effectively eliminated from play. The U-2511 does that and rightly so IMO. My point is this inevitably leads to discussions of redoing the stats and SAs of the cards beyond just a recost. Then it really gets hairy. That's why we settled on doing "operational alternatives" instead of trying to outright replace old cards. Yes, some of them effectively "replace" the old card in desirability, but the old cards are still in play for those that want them. No lists required.
The reason the Swordfish got 3 for it's TT attack, is because it's slow enough to get it right. (or so I have been told). So, the Fi-167 doesn't. So sad. Here's my remake from my 2nd deck:
1939: -2 on all aa attacks 1940: -1 1942: no penalty
This was what I came up with.
Would these rules modifications make sense based on general ship characteristics during various times during the war? What other changes across the board could be made to give each year more of the flavor it historically had?
1939: Roll 1 less die when making Antiair attacks, except for units already rolling 4 or fewer dice. German, Italian, and US destroyers cost 1 point less, can't make range-2 torpedo attacks, and make a Defective Torpedoes check before attacking.
1940: Roll 1 less die when making Antiair attacks, except for units already rolling 4 or fewer dice. German, Italian, and US destroyers cost 1 point less, can't make range-2 torpedo attacks, and make a Defective Torpedoes check before making torpedo attacks.
1941: Roll 1 less die when making Antiair attacks, except for units already rolling 4 or fewer dice. German, Italian, and US destroyers cost 1 point less and make a Defective Torpedoes check before making torpedo attacks.
1942: Roll no more than 7 dice when making Antiair attacks from Ships. German, Italian, and US destroyers cost 1 point less and make a Defective Torpedoes check before making torpedo attacks.
This is why year limits make a difference, at least with the swordfish.
Not with the Bf-109 in play.
Graf Zep has a year of 1941 on it which would force the 109 to the LAB in earlier year games. That'd mitigate the 109s effectiveness considering you've got Eagle and Ark Royal available from 39
To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high. -In Flanders Fields. John McCrea
Graf Zep has a year of 1941 on it which would force the 109 to the LAB in earlier year games. That'd mitigate the 109s effectiveness considering you've got Eagle and Ark Royal available from 39
That helps a little, but it is still a threat. You can also use the FAB now. Thankfully, the FAB isn't very cost effective on a lower cost fighter.
The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care" Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!
Finally got to play last weekend for the first time in over a year! Played Germany a couple games and while doing my fleet builds I kept coming back to what a disaster Fi 167 is.... I know luck_Y did those set 1 recostings and they have become standard in my fleet binders. Have we given any serious thought to recosting some of these units that are completely obsolete?
I don't think a re-costing is going to help the Fi 167. With the power inflation in AA values over the course of the sets and decks, and the huge selection of fighter aircraft we now have I don't think any aircraft with armor 4 or less has much chance of getting through to accomplish anything.
I agree with this train of thought; drastically changing the cost to me does an injustice to the original games cost mechanics. All it really needs to be useful is SA's; something that makes your opponent have to pay attention. Combined attack; determined attack; harass from a distance one or two even with a point increase make it noticeable and useful especially for Germany Germany could use a remake of it or something more Fantasy like if you like the Atlantic make believe UK Italy Germany Carrier Warfare type game