Japanese Cruiser Secondaries

antirrhopus
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 28, 2021 19:31:05 GMT via mobile

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Post by antirrhopus on Jul 28, 2021 19:31:05 GMT

Forgive me if a thread already exists for this, I searched through the different forums/sub-forums and turned up nothing; if there is a discussion about this elsewhere, I’d love to be pointed to it!

I don’t know why I never noticed before, but in looking at Atago, I just noticed she doesn’t have a secondary battery stat line; surely she should have something, no? Same goes for Aoba; shouldn’t both of these heavy cruisers have at least some secondary power?

If so, how should it be represented in game? I ask because I play WAS with some errata, like giving HMS Kent secondaries and Tirpitz a torpedo stat line as suggested in “Warspite’s corrections” thread.

Thanks!

Theaetetus
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 28, 2021 21:31:47 GMT antirrhopus likes this

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Post by Theaetetus on Jul 28, 2021 21:31:47 GMT

I think Swizzle added secondary and tertiary guns to a number of units (including Atago) in his deck "Hoist the Colors," and his custom seems to be to increase the cost by 1 point when they are added.

forumini.boards.net/thread/25/swizzles-decks

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weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 4,528	Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT antirrhopus likes this Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT The general rule based on RB's WotC stats is that a ship must have more than 4 guns of at least 4 inch size to have a secondary.
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antirrhopus
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 29, 2021 11:58:05 GMT via mobile

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Post by antirrhopus on Jul 29, 2021 11:58:05 GMT

Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT weedsrock2 said:

The general rule based on RB's WotC stats is that a ship must have more than 4 guns of at least 4 inch size to have a secondary.

Ah ok, so there was a reason they weren’t originally printed with secondaries; I wasn’t sure if it was just some weird oversight (since I know the cards have their fair share of errors), but that makes sense.

Striker Forumini Ensign Sometimes you need to lose to win. Posts: 425	Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 29, 2021 13:16:57 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Striker on Jul 29, 2021 13:16:57 GMT Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT weedsrock2 said: The general rule based on RB's WotC stats is that a ship must have more than 4 guns of at least 4 inch size to have a secondary. OK and what was the rule for tertiary guns?

weedsrock2
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 29, 2021 15:49:17 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 29, 2021 15:49:17 GMT

Jul 29, 2021 13:16:57 GMT Striker said:

Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT weedsrock2 said:

The general rule based on RB's WotC stats is that a ship must have more than 4 guns of at least 4 inch size to have a secondary.

OK and what was the rule for tertiary guns?

I am not aware of a specific tertiary rule limit, but the overall stat guidelines for gunnery are posted in a thread in the Card making forum.

forumini.boards.net/thread/15/guidelines-stats

The main issue that comes up with tertiary guns is "when do we use a separate tertiary line versus using Bristling with Guns?" With one exception, RB used Bristling whenever there was only a large secondary battery (usually of Dual purpose guns like the US 5in/38 and the British 5.25 in HA guns). If a ship has two distinctly different smaller caliber batteries (like a 6 in secondary and a 4 in tertiary) then they get separate attack lines on the card.

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Striker
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 31, 2021 0:02:33 GMT

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Post by Striker on Jul 31, 2021 0:02:33 GMT

Jul 29, 2021 15:49:17 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Jul 29, 2021 13:16:57 GMT Striker said:

OK and what was the rule for tertiary guns?

I am not aware of a specific tertiary rule limit, but the overall stat guidelines for gunnery are posted in a thread in the Card making forum.

forumini.boards.net/thread/15/guidelines-stats

The main issue that comes up with tertiary guns is "when do we use a separate tertiary line versus using Bristling with Guns?" With one exception, RB used Bristling whenever there was only a large secondary battery (usually of Dual purpose guns like the US 5in/38 and the British 5.25 in HA guns). If a ship has two distinctly different smaller caliber batteries (like a 6 in secondary and a 4 in tertiary) then they get separate attack lines on the card.

I know a core principle of W@S was KISS but if the small caliber guns of Aoba and Atago didn't qualify for a secondary line the maybe they could have been given a tertiary line? (With a blank secondary.) Mechanically there's no difference, you're still rolling two separate attacks and calling them secondaries or tertiaries would only be a case of schematics but it would be inline with the games card format and more accurately represent the ships.
RB obviously considered 4 x 4" guns(or less) wouldn't even qualify for tertiaries and outside the framework of the game.

P.S. because they were DP guns then RB must have merged them into the AA stat. If so then it would have been good to allow these "AA" guns to shoot at MTB's.

Last Edit: Jul 31, 2021 0:05:50 GMT by Striker

weedsrock2
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 31, 2021 2:01:21 GMT

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Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 31, 2021 2:01:21 GMT

Jul 31, 2021 0:02:33 GMT Striker said:

Jul 29, 2021 15:49:17 GMT weedsrock2 said:

I am not aware of a specific tertiary rule limit, but the overall stat guidelines for gunnery are posted in a thread in the Card making forum.

forumini.boards.net/thread/15/guidelines-stats

The main issue that comes up with tertiary guns is "when do we use a separate tertiary line versus using Bristling with Guns?" With one exception, RB used Bristling whenever there was only a large secondary battery (usually of Dual purpose guns like the US 5in/38 and the British 5.25 in HA guns). If a ship has two distinctly different smaller caliber batteries (like a 6 in secondary and a 4 in tertiary) then they get separate attack lines on the card.

I know a core principle of W@S was KISS but if the small caliber guns of Aoba and Atago didn't qualify for a secondary line the maybe they could have been given a tertiary line? (With a blank secondary.) Mechanically there's no difference, you're still rolling two separate attacks and calling them secondaries or tertiaries would only be a case of schematics but it would be inline with the games card format and more accurately represent the ships.
RB obviously considered 4 x 4" guns(or less) wouldn't even qualify for tertiaries and outside the framework of the game.

P.S. because they were DP guns then RB must have merged them into the AA stat. If so then it would have been good to allow these "AA" guns to shoot at MTB's.

I would guess KISS was his thinking. Also, most of the secondaries and tertiaries on ships are split between the starboard and port sides so only about half of the guns can bear on a single target. That takes the secondaries down just two guns in a four-gun secondary. Not that he couldn't have had a very low secondary value like 2/1 and "bristling." But that is getting pretty detailed.

We have definitely taken allowance for dual purpose guns for AA values. In fact, RAEVSKI calculated early on that the 3 to 5 in "AA" guns were really most of RBs calculated AA score. The 40 mm/20 mm/MG stuff is mainly a little icing on the score or the fodder for AA Special abilities if there is a lot of it. That's an area where the game is on the loose/generous side. It basically allows the player to use those dual purpose batteries to shoot at surface targets and be used for AA defense all in the same turn. Tracers are spraying everwhere!

Last Edit: Jul 31, 2021 2:02:11 GMT by weedsrock2

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raevski
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Jul 31, 2021 4:27:20 GMT via mobile

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Post by raevski on Jul 31, 2021 4:27:20 GMT

Jul 29, 2021 13:16:57 GMT Striker said:

Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT weedsrock2 said:

The general rule based on RB's WotC stats is that a ship must have more than 4 guns of at least 4 inch size to have a secondary.

OK and what was the rule for tertiary guns?

it must be able to have a 4 gun broadside of secondaries

Striker
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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries Aug 3, 2021 14:19:05 GMT

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Post by Striker on Aug 3, 2021 14:19:05 GMT

weedsrock2 Avatar
Jul 31, 2021 10:01:21 GMT 8 weedsrock2 said:
I would guess KISS was his thinking. Also, most of the secondaries and tertiaries on ships are split between the starboard and port sides so only about half of the guns can bear on a single target. That takes the secondaries down just two guns in a four-gun secondary. Not that he couldn't have had a very low secondary value like 2/1 and "bristling." But that is getting pretty detailed.

There must be different rules between battleships, cruisers and destroyers.
The USS John C Butler only had 2 x 5" and gets a 3 3 2 MG gun line.
The USS Edsall only had 4 x 4" and gets a 4 3 3 MG line.
Pretty generous.

weedsrock2 Avatar
Jul 31, 2021 10:01:21 GMT 8 weedsrock2 said:
We have definitely taken allowance for dual purpose guns for AA values. In fact, RAEVSKI calculated early on that the 3 to 5 in "AA" guns were really most of RBs calculated AA score. The 40 mm/20 mm/MG stuff is mainly a little icing on the score or the fodder for AA Special abilities if there is a lot of it. That's an area where the game is on the loose/generous side. It basically allows the player to use those dual purpose batteries to shoot at surface targets and be used for AA defense all in the same turn. Tracers are spraying everwhere!

The Aoba and Atago can't use their DP to shoot at MTBs.

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Japanese Cruiser Secondaries

Post by antirrhopus on Jul 28, 2021 19:31:05 GMT

Post by Theaetetus on Jul 28, 2021 21:31:47 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 29, 2021 2:14:05 GMT

Post by antirrhopus on Jul 29, 2021 11:58:05 GMT

Post by Striker on Jul 29, 2021 13:16:57 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 29, 2021 15:49:17 GMT

Post by Striker on Jul 31, 2021 0:02:33 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Jul 31, 2021 2:01:21 GMT

Post by raevski on Jul 31, 2021 4:27:20 GMT

Post by Striker on Aug 3, 2021 14:19:05 GMT

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