Were you there? No? Then you got no idea what you're talking about.
For the record, AFAIK, Andy left because he couldn't prevent the Ju 52 card from being printed as-is (he strongly objected to the Paratrooper SA, IIRC). Nothing to do with the P-38.
9 points for the P-38 (as written) is a sad joke. WAY overcosted. Rarely ever sees use. For 10 points, you could take two P40s or a Marine Corsair.
Didn't mean to get your dander up; No I wasn't there you guys were running the show; I only got to talk about the units after the fact; i heard he left for that reason;but i doubt it was the only one. Played a few times at Shows with a WAS group he was with; He had his thing; always seem to gravitate to sub swarms.
As i said if you look back i argued over the cost as to high; but saying way overcast is ridiculous Excellent Endurance is a powerful SA if you don't want the Carrier cost. You got a hang up on the SA Interceptor that's fine i like the SA glad its in the game.
I don't think its worth bashing a Player Unit or SA for maybe a 1point overcast and if you think its 2 points overcast you don't know what your talking about. You don't need to flood the game with cheap fighters that can do everything.
As SWO said hard SA to use; Why because their is a lot of cheap fighters in the game. If it was on more and a wider range of fighters it would have its value. But with all the Cheap fighters the SA as to to improved in the future as was Advanced Interceptor with the Me262
Further, P-51 has the P-38 completely covered for a point more. P-51 rolls 9 dice all the time rather than 7, and its condit ional +2 dice is completely controllable by the Allied player.
Your right; but to me one point goes a long way in the air unit cost end of the game; I can argue look at the FW 190 both for the same cost; to me right on.
One gives you EE extra Interceptor die escort the other Advantage against fighters better AA You start getting into the 10 pt range for looking 9 or better AA;; the LL P-39 was the first 8AA 7pt fighter in the game so all in-between takes some care to cost.
Maybe its me i just don't see 9 for the P-38 for what it offers as ridiculously cost. If you ever play me you can put them on the board for 8pts easy enough done BUT; As the Godfather said some day i may call on you for a favor.
I don't think its worth bashing a Player Unit or SA for maybe a 1point overcast and if you think its 2 points overcast you don't know what your talking about. You don't need to flood the game with cheap air units that can do everything.
The P-38 is absolutely overcosted by 2 as it is written. Compare it to the Elite Zero, which costs 8 points, has Excellent Endurance, Ace, and oh by the way, is Carrier Capable... all for 8 points. It can benefit from Expert Dogfighter (or EDF 2) and fly every turn off a carrier, or free up some carrier space for other planes by flying from the land base for the first two turns (by which point the IJN's usually lost enough planes to free up some deck space). Compare to the Marine Corsair at 10, or the P40 at 5.
Now you take the P-38, which has Interceptor 2... which ALMOST *NEVER* TRIGGERS because it's so easy to block... and can't benefit from Expert SAs, or fly from a carrier deck... and tell me it's worth 1 point more than the Elite Zeke? The "Team" card is broken, and not in a "too powerful" way. If they'd given it 8 AA and Interceptor 1... then maybe it's worth 9.
Look at the games played online and count how many times you see the Elite Zero used and how many times you see the P-38 used. That ought to give you a clue.
The point of this question wasn't to bash the P-38... everyone knows that's a bookmark, it's why we use SWO's version instead... but rather to ask about the Interceptor SA, and then lament again how utterly useless it is... except in very rare situations, like "I've shot down all my oppenent's fighters" or "My opponent doesn't escort his fighters because he doesn't know better (yet)"...
And by the way. All I said was Andy kicked up a huge fuss over it. I never said he's a terrible person, or a bad player, or anything else. Just that in this case, he was over-valuing Interceptor. A lot.
I don't think its worth bashing a Player Unit or SA for maybe a 1point overcast and if you think its 2 points overcast you don't know what your talking about. You don't need to flood the game with cheap air units that can do everything.
The P-38 is absolutely overcosted by 2 as it is written. Compare it to the Elite Zero, which costs 8 points, has Excellent Endurance, Ace, and oh by the way, is Carrier Capable... all for 8 points. It can benefit from Expert Dogfighter (or EDF 2) and fly every turn off a carrier, or free up some carrier space for other planes by flying from the land base for the first two turns (by which point the IJN's usually lost enough planes to free up some deck space). Compare to the Marine Corsair at 10, or the P40 at 5.
Now you take the P-38, which has Interceptor 2... which ALMOST *NEVER* TRIGGERS because it's so easy to block... and can't benefit from Expert SAs, or fly from a carrier deck... and tell me it's worth 1 point more than the Elite Zeke? The "Team" card is broken, and not in a "too powerful" way. If they'd given it 8 AA and Interceptor 1... then maybe it's worth 9.
Look at the games played online and count how many times you see the Elite Zero used and how many times you see the P-38 used. That ought to give you a clue.
The point of this question wasn't to bash the P-38... everyone knows that's a bookmark, it's why we use SWO's version instead... but rather to ask about the Interceptor SA, and then lament again how utterly useless it is... except in very rare situations, like "I've shot down all my oppenent's fighters" or "My opponent doesn't escort his fighters because he doesn't know better (yet)"...
Sorry i beg to differ with you on 2 pts; if you look back i did edit my comments on why and if the SA should be improved i agree on that. Your leaving out the defensive line on the P-38 over the Elite; again if you want to use it on a carrier you have to pay for the carrier your choice. Granted HA but OPG worth 8.5 vidal. I believe you can use Expert with P-38; I'll flood my carriers with DB's i think carrier should be in the build to bring death from above not fighter cover if i don't have to. Not many EE choices you and many others don't seem to use it much from what i've read; i see some good uses; would be nice for a pt cheaper but it is what it is.
And by the way. All I said was Andy kicked up a huge fuss over it. I never said he's a terrible person, or a bad player, or anything else. Just that in this case, he was over-valuing Interceptor. A lot.
I'm not saying that; sorry if you took it that way; i had a lot of back and forth's with Andy; but he wouldn't know me from a hole in the wall. He had a keen head for the rules and game i just guess like most we see things in a different light
You can't use Expert SAs with the P-38. It has the SA Land Fighter. "Land Fighter -This unit can't be based on a Carrier, and it can't benefit from the Expert Dogfighter bonus." Also, the ELite has "Ace", so it can reroll one shot... which can be 9 AA with the appropriate Expert SA. And yes, the EDF bonus applies to the re-roll (once).
And, if (High Agility + VA 8 < VA 9), then surely (Excellent Endurance + Carrier Capable < EE alone).
My more lengthy take on this - Interceptor is badly overvalued on many of the units itappears on given the current state of the game (6 official decks, 5 team decks, and about a half dozen 'widely accepted' player decks). I think fighters with Interceptor have a place in weird formats (Ex: night games in particular, where you can't depend on an opposing fighter being there to oppose you, or in unusual daylight games where an opponent brings ZERO air cover, or in late game situations when an opponent is just out of fighters to oppose you). As written with the current unit list available to most Navies, it is horribly easy to block in a typical daylight game above 100 points, and therefore I think it is of little actual value in game for the most part.
If the P-38 had just been a straight-up 8 AA fighter for its current points, either dropping Interceptor all-together or dropping it to simply Interceptor (1), we might have had a decent plane for its 9 point cost. As is, I'd rather spend that one extra point and take 2xP-40s. Hands down, the better option 99% of the time. Which is sad for such an iconic plane.
I think its important to remember Interceptor is a Set 2 SA. When introduced on the Bf-109 (still by all accounts, a very good carrier fighter), the ONLY other fighters in the game: Sea Hurricane Mk.IB, F4F Wildcat, A6M2 "Zeke", C.202 Folgore, Beaufighter TF Mk.X, F6F-3 Hellcat. That's a VERY short list! Most of those fighters have Escort, but not every Navy had a fighter under Historical Limits. At the time, Interceptor absolutely had a place. As a USN player, you might actually try to send 4 unescorted Dauntlesses or Avengers in after a target, but those Bf109s really screwed with that approach. And you could safely bring the Bf109 with bombers, because it had Escort as well.
That changed after Set 2. In the next 4 sets, we got these Fighters: F4F Martlet Mk.II, RE.2001CB Falco II, A6M5 "Zeke", Dewoitine D.520, F4U Corsair, N1K1-J 'George', P-40E Warhawk, B-239 Buffalo, A6M2-N “Rufe”, F4U-1D Corsair, Lend-Lease Hurricane Mk. II, FW-190A, Elite A6M2 Zero. Out of those 13 planes, 5 got Interceptor, but the Escort SA continued to proliferate, as did higher natural AA values (looking at you Corsair). Of the 5 planes that got Interceptor, I'd consider 2 very good for their cost (P-40 and LL Hurricane), 1 about Average (D.520), 1 situational (Rufe, at Night), and 1 just overcosted (Fw-190 - at 8 AA with no escort stuck on a land base, this should be an 8 point plane). As RB and WOTC added more sets, everybody got fighters. Escort is a potent SA, so everybody was encouraged to take fighters with it. Which meant fighters became way more common, and Interceptor just got harder and harder to trigger.
So I view Interceptor as a SA that, once upon a time, had a legitimate use. However, the addition of many more fighters in the many decks that have followed, including the proliferation of the Escort SA, the happy Interceptor hunting ground has steadily dried up. Not a horrible SA when first designed, but a SA that the original game designer, and those that followed him, intentionally or unintentionally, gradually walked away from.
Personally, I pick up a nerf football and spike it against the wall in my living room when Interceptor triggers during an online game. Its more rare these days than actually getting to use CAP - like NFL lineman scoring an 80 yard touchdown off a fumble. As the Coach once said, "act like you've been there before and just hand the ball to the ref". In the case of Interceptor, it now triggers once or twice in a career, and the lineman SHOULD spike it. He HASN'T ever been there before.
Cheers gents. Sorry for the ramble...I drink wine...I ramble.
Spot on! Just like in the cost structure of set 1 - Myoko, Canberra, and even Trento's costs make sense (at least partially - Jintsu is still suspect but...). Until Set 2 came out and the whole system imploded.
To the actual rule question: Yes a present fighter - even a strafing fighter blocks - interceptor. The problem is in the way Interceptor is written, same as the Defensive Armament and fire selection order problem. The proliferation of fighters (probably the most famous planes of the war even if they weren't the real workhorses) has relegated Interceptor to pretty much a tack-on useless SA - but at the same time made Escort a MUST-HAVE if you bring attacking bombers. The cost of the non-super fighter has come down quite a bit too as non-super fighters roughly start at 5 points for land-based and 6-points for carriers even with a desirable SA load.
From both of those two issues, the P-38 is a HUGE disappointment. At the core of the card, the P38 is a land-based F4F. In typical performance you get 1 more armor and that's it which makes it a better strafer. The F4F is carrier based the P38 has EE instead. Since F4F also has CAP and DtF the EE/armor should have P38 as-is as a 7 point card - maybe even a 6. As useless as Interceptor is, Interceptor2 is even more useless because you pay a premium for nothing. The other fighter with Interceptor2 is the Mosquito and it is only 7 points. Probably because of the base 6AA (only one less...). But the Mossie EARNS it's points by the other SA's it brings. As a strafer it is even remarkably similar to the P38 but gets better attack and (while strafing) better armor. So the Difference is Flak Suppression vs. EE. In the "power-creep"/"cost-spiral" of the fighter costing across the WotC cards and the team decks, the P38 is a standout anomaly for the overcosting side.
Last Edit: Aug 10, 2017 14:52:59 GMT by firesdstny
My more lengthy take on this - Interceptor is badly overvalued on many of the units itappears on given the current state of the game (6 official decks, 5 team decks, and about a half dozen 'widely accepted' player decks). I think fighters with Interceptor have a place in weird formats (Ex: night games in particular, where you can't depend on an opposing fighter being there to oppose you, or in unusual daylight games where an opponent brings ZERO air cover, or in late game situations when an opponent is just out of fighters to oppose you). As written with the current unit list available to most Navies, it is horribly easy to block in a typical daylight game above 100 points, and therefore I think it is of little actual value in game for the most part.
If the P-38 had just been a straight-up 8 AA fighter for its current points, either dropping Interceptor all-together or dropping it to simply Interceptor (1), we might have had a decent plane for its 9 point cost. As is, I'd rather spend that one extra point and take 2xP-40s. Hands down, the better option 99% of the time. Which is sad for such an iconic plane.
I think its important to remember Interceptor is a Set 2 SA. When introduced on the Bf-109 (still by all accounts, a very good carrier fighter), the ONLY other fighters in the game: Sea Hurricane Mk.IB, F4F Wildcat, A6M2 "Zeke", C.202 Folgore, Beaufighter TF Mk.X, F6F-3 Hellcat. That's a VERY short list! Most of those fighters have Escort, but not every Navy had a fighter under Historical Limits. At the time, Interceptor absolutely had a place. As a USN player, you might actually try to send 4 unescorted Dauntlesses or Avengers in after a target, but those Bf109s really screwed with that approach. And you could safely bring the Bf109 with bombers, because it had Escort as well.
That changed after Set 2. In the next 4 sets, we got these Fighters: F4F Martlet Mk.II, RE.2001CB Falco II, A6M5 "Zeke", Dewoitine D.520, F4U Corsair, N1K1-J 'George', P-40E Warhawk, B-239 Buffalo, A6M2-N “Rufe”, F4U-1D Corsair, Lend-Lease Hurricane Mk. II, FW-190A, Elite A6M2 Zero. Out of those 13 planes, 5 got Interceptor, but the Escort SA continued to proliferate, as did higher natural AA values (looking at you Corsair). Of the 4 planes that got Escort, I'd consider 2 very good for their cost (P-40 and LL Hurricane), 1 about Average (D.520), 1 situational (Rufe, at Night), and 1 just overcosted (Fw-190 - at 8 AA with no escort stuck on a land base, this should be an 8 point plane). As RB and WOTC added more sets, everybody got fighters. Escort is a potent SA, so everybody was encouraged to take fighters with it. Which meant fighters became way more common, and Interceptor just got harder and harder to trigger.
So I view Interceptor as a SA that, once upon a time, had a legitimate use. However, the addition of many more fighters in the many decks that have followed, including the proliferation of the Escort SA, the happy Interceptor hunting ground has steadily dried up. Not a horrible SA when first designed, but a SA that the original game designer, and those that followed him, intentionally or unintentionally, gradually walked away from.
Personally, I pick up a nerf football and spike it against the wall in my living room when Interceptor triggers during an online game. Its more rare these days than actually getting to use CAP - like NFL lineman scoring an 80 yard touchdown off a fumble. As the Coach once said, "act like you've been there before and just hand the ball to the ref". In the case of Interceptor, it now triggers once or twice in a career, and the lineman SHOULD spike it. He HASN'T ever been there before.
Cheers gents. Sorry for the ramble...I drink wine...I ramble.
Must be a good wine, because that was nicely said; believe thats what I was trying to say but unfortunately i wasn't drinking.
One point if i may; there has been a lot added to the game to make the Air Attack on Ships hard enough so adding a new and interesting Interceptor SA although appealing to most i would not be in favor of; I look at the original as good enough; true it should not add much to a units cost and just be available to keep your opponent from not doing what he should be.
Have to agree on your assessment of the P-38 would have been a better way to go.
You can't use Expert SAs with the P-38. It has the SA Land Fighter. "Land Fighter -This unit can't be based on a Carrier, and it can't benefit from the Expert Dogfighter bonus." Also, the ELite has "Ace", so it can reroll one shot... which can be 9 AA with the appropriate Expert SA. And yes, the EDF bonus applies to the re-roll (once).
And, if (High Agility + VA 8 < VA 9), then surely (Excellent Endurance + Carrier Capable < EE alone).
Right you are brain fart on Expert; Personally i'd hate to see the Elite cost more than it does; but there was a lot crammed into that unit for 8 pts. RB needed to fill a spot in the last set and a Zero to deal with some tough USN units that he created the Wildcat with Vidal 9 and the P-40's cost;; so to me thats a fair enough correction. You start comparing the P-38 for 8 pts. with some others; Fw 190 a lot of your 10pt. fighters it keeps the air game in line. You start making units like this for 6 or 7 pts. you get another game changer;; if you think Interceptor is a wasted SA what did the 3 and 4 pt. fighters do to it.
A lot of players think the SA is a waste I just think its a keep you honest SA; it should be in the game but not be a big expense to a unit you want to add to to. I wasn't privy to the teams dealing with the unit; but in In my back and forth's with Andy i got the impression it was more the EE that pushed the cost to 9 it was the first expansion and maybe caution of creating another P-40 was on their minds.