I am new as a player (have been collecting some time but just played with my brother and his kids before).
Submarines seems really weak. Did we miss somethingh? The submarines cost more in points compared to DDs (or light cruisers) that are always usefull. I understand they can add one more unit to the same area and set up far ahead.
Submarines as individual units can sometimes underperform, mainly because rolling only a couple dice and hoping for a six is "dicey". They really shine when you use them in numbers, particularly with units or SAs that increase the number of shots they can take.
Any German sub with Wolfpack can be very effective in numbers. Some of the best are U-510 and U-66. If you add in a Kondor, the size of the torpedo salvo can get pretty high.
Japanese subs like I-19 are particularly tough (3-7-2 armor) and have range-3 torpedoes. These can be boosted by Chikuma's Scout Planes SA. If you use several I-19 or similar IJN subs, you can deliver a lot of torpedoes at Range-3 outside the range of a DD.
Torpedoes can be superb DD killers and, if they have submerged shot (almost all of them do), submarine killers. Often these shots are lower percentage, but if you get a few hits before your subs get attacked, it can give them a freer hand later in the game. There is tendency to want to go after bigger game with submarines (Cruisers and BBs), but a single torpedo hit on a few DDs can turn a game on its head.
If you use the Forumini Team Cards, there are a number of other excellent submarines out there: Bévéziers (French sub that gets + 1 Attacking BBs), USS Silversides (Gets +1 torps for firing at a target that another sub has fired at - almost as good as Wolfpack - I really like a couple of these teamed with USS Barb), Luigi Torelli (Italian sub with the same SA as Silversides, just slightly weaker range 2 torps), U-25 (very inexpensive Wolfpack boat with a class limit of 2). There are others, but those are some of the ones that immediately come to mind.
There is also a class of submarines in the 8-10 point range that only have 1 hull point. They can be effective as well, but almost always have to be used in numbers to be effective. I've seen 8 Russian S-13s in a build - it was no joke.
Bottomline...use numbers and look for subs that can circumstantially fire more torpedoes. Hope that helps.
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones
Another thing that benefits subs is that they're hard to attack. There's only the one attack type found on Destroyers and a few planes that can affect subs so if they're out of the picture, subs can attack with impunity
To you from failing hands we throw the torch be yours to hold it high. -In Flanders Fields. John McCrea
Certainly I think you are right Magro especially in terms of cost over survivability, I'm not sure about the rest of the folks but I mostly overlook Submarines for the Royal Navy during the build because I'd rather allocate points toward ASW defence rather than attack submarines on the tabletop. That means DDs and Sunderlands etc rather than allocate points to actually fielding Submarines myself. I'm no statistician, but Ive always felt they were about 6 points more than they should be in most cases.
Cheers mate and welcome to the forums
Dan
pictures upload "The British Army should be a projectile fired by the British Navy" - Viscount Grey
I agree with most Subs alone are a hard sell; but as a swarm; there is nothing more deadly and hard to prepare for. Some well known builds ala KOD have proved that.
The German 4-armor subs are surprisingly hard to kill, even with Avengers with Expert ASW rolling 5 dice it's hard.
Subs and aircraft pay the best dividends in long games. If you start turn 4, they're probably going to be worth it. In a 2-3 turn game likely they won't have enough time to work their magic.
Post by Solomiranthius on Jul 5, 2017 14:52:39 GMT
I always view units on their ability to recoup their points. A 12 point sub will be a good bring for me if I can typically sink/damage 12 points worth of units. The other item to look at is if in your opponent trying to attack the sub, are they directing attacks from elsewhere. Since a Destroyer can only make an ASW attack (not an ASW and gunnery or torps), you may be deflecting more likely shots from other units. Most 3/6/2 submarines are going to take two ASW attacks to sink, so that is a couple of turns. If ignored by ASW, you are more likely to be able to get your points back.
I want to reiterate MN's point that the longer a game goes, typically the more valuable a sub will be. If you can get six torpedo dice rolled in a game, you are getting only a 67% chance to hit once (but a 26% chance to hit twice). ASW threat often reduces the number of dice you are rolling (either directly or indirectly by forcing your subs to stay at range 2 from most units). That is partly what makes S13s in large numbers successful--ASW threat really doesn't make a huge difference. If you can roll 6 torps a turn from 36 points worth of units (6 S13s), then you are getting a 67% chance a turn to cause some real damage. That adds up and sinking one or two S13s doesn't change the calculus much (as opposed to sinking one or two 12 point subs out of three total in a build--that devastates that build, even more so if you take a wolfpack swarm down to one sub).
Other considerations not previously raised are whether you have an IJN sub with R.3 (most are able to get turn 1 attacks on ships, which can be significant with the right unit mix), Infiltrator on any sub (although most are expensive enough to limit this), are facing a fleet with speed/advanced deployment that will let a R2 sub get a turn 1 attack, or are playing a swarm/a large point game where sector space is a commodity (as said, a sub lets you get a total of 3 or more units in a single sector).
Also, if you are playing against the IJN or Germany (in particular because of the quality of their subs) or any other nation with high-cost, high value subs, bringing one or two cheap subs to use Submerged Shot can be big. There are high quality 8-10 point subs that can throw a similar amount of torps against a sub as the amount from a much more expensive 12-15 point submarine. If you sink an opponent's I-19 with a KXVI, you are already up whether or not you lose the KXVI in the process.
Yeah, and likewise if you can make the high-point subs use their shots against your subs instead of surface targets then you likely are negating other bonuses (Chikuma, Kondor, SAs on the card itself).
I always view units on their ability to recoup their points. A 12 point sub will be a good bring for me if I can typically sink/damage 12 points worth of units. The other item to look at is if in your opponent trying to attack the sub, are they directing attacks from elsewhere. Since a Destroyer can only make an ASW attack (not an ASW and gunnery or torps), you may be deflecting more likely shots from other units. Most 3/6/2 submarines are going to take two ASW attacks to sink, so that is a couple of turns. If ignored by ASW, you are more likely to be able to get your points back.
I want to reiterate MN's point that the longer a game goes, typically the more valuable a sub will be. If you can get six torpedo dice rolled in a game, you are getting only a 67% chance to hit once (but a 26% chance to hit twice). ASW threat often reduces the number of dice you are rolling (either directly or indirectly by forcing your subs to stay at range 2 from most units). That is partly what makes S13s in large numbers successful--ASW threat really doesn't make a huge difference. If you can roll 6 torps a turn from 36 points worth of units (6 S13s), then you are getting a 67% chance a turn to cause some real damage. That adds up and sinking one or two S13s doesn't change the calculus much (as opposed to sinking one or two 12 point subs out of three total in a build).
Other considerations not previously raised are whether you have an IJN sub with R.3 (most are able to get turn 1 attacks on ships, which can be significant with the right unit mix), Infiltrator on any sub (although most are expensive enough to limit this), are facing a fleet with speed/advanced deployment that will let a R2 sub get a turn 1 attack, or are playing a swarm/a large point game where sector space is a commodity (as said, a sub lets you get a total of 3 or more units in a single sector).
Also, if you are playing against the IJN or Germany (in particular because of the quality of their subs) or any other nation with high-cost, high value subs, bringing one or two cheap subs to use Submerged Shot can be big. There are high quality 8-10 point subs that can through a similar amount of torps against a sub as the amount from a much more expensive 12-15 point submarine. If you sink an opponent's I-19 with a KXVI, you are already up whether or not you lose the KXVI in the process.
This is why we've seen subs are waste off points. I buy 2 subs you get 3 or more DDs for the same points. I see the point in wolf packs though, it takes loads off planes (or rounds of ASW bombing) to clear many subs and if the DDs spread out that thin out they will be free lunch for enemy planes or guns.
Post by Solomiranthius on Jul 5, 2017 16:32:16 GMT
Think of it this way though. If you feel you may be facing a few battleships, 2 submarines are typically going to be more valuable than 3 destroyers. A battleship can do nothing against submarines. The (often taken) defensive fighter cover also can do no harm to a submarine. Battleships have seconds, thirds, bristling, etc. and fighters have strafing attacks, that can quickly clear out those destroyers. Unless your destroyer is making smoke (in which case, it is not attacking) or using some other SA, you may, if lucky, get one or two rounds in which to use the torpedo attacks of your destroyers (and this is probably going to be 1-4 torps max per destroyer). You may get 3 or 4 rounds from a submarine to attack the same battleship (with 3-16 torps from each sub in those rounds often possible).
In competitive builds, you'll often see swarms of just battleships and submarines. Battleships can defend themselves against most units, and submarines either help to mop up after the surface round (take that 2 remaining hull enemy BB and sink her with two torp hits) or act as submerged ASW against enemy submarines that may otherwise harass your battleships. They also play well in air games (gives you additional un-aborted attacks and can help route ships away from objectives/your carriers), and swarms (more units per sector).
They do fair very poorly against swarms of enemy destroyers--great chance to waste shots/have ASW threat suppression.
Except for a few poorly cost units, I've never found subs to be particularly lacking. Often I find I have a bigger ship and a submarine left after the first two rounds and recognize that if I had taken a light cruiser or destroyer instead of the submarine, I would only have that bigger ship left since there were unused/non-productively used surface shots that could have sunk it.
"You like ships. You don't seem to be lookin' at the destinations. What you care about is the ships, and mine's the nicest." ~ Firefly ~
Yeah, the idea is that anything that can take out a sub is as soft or a softer target than the sub itself. If you make the destroyers come to you, then you control the range for your assets that can handle the subs.
Great advice in the posts above, I just want to add that 3-4 German U-boats (200 point game) that have Wolfpack can be very powerful. To protect them from the destroyers, the Bf-110 strafes very well, and the Adm Graf Spee and sisters can shoot at the destroyers at range 3 with very powerful results. (not battleship guns, so hit on 4-6, not just 6)
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Actually, we find subs to be generally more effective than destroyers. They are by far the most effective ASW weapon. I rarely see a DD attack a sub because there are usually much more valuable targets to use the DDs torpedoes on. DDs are best for "harassing" a sub to reduce its attack. Subs are about the only thing worth bringing against 5 - 6 hull BBs except more 5 - 6 hull BBs. In our club tournaments the "clash of the subs" is generally the opening round (turn) of the game. Whoever survives with the most subs is in a strong position since the surface ships have to come to the Objectives.
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