I've had a request for the never built French Battleship Gascoigne, a semi sister to the Richelieu, Jean Bart, and started Clemenceau. These ships had 9 six-inch guns which on the Richelieu card (no Clemenceau card yet and the Jean Bart card reflects the ship being incomplete). Designer gave the card a 6/6/5/5 as compared to 8/7/6/6 on the Gloire, which also has 9 six-inch guns. Presumably this is because the Richelieu has its secondaries on either side of the ship, not inline and capable of firing both port and starboard. Enter the Gascoigne. Unlike the Richelieu, Jean Bart or Clemenceau, the main guns were to be arranged one turret fore and one turret aft. The six-inch guns would be inline so like a cruiser, it would be able to fire all of them port or starboard. The person suggesting the stats for the cards thinks this should be reflected in the stats and was proposing a 7/7/6/5 secondary arrangement. Does that sound reasonable? Or should it even be 8/7/6/6 as in the Gloire? It does seem that placement of the guns are being considered in the stats on the cards but if not, then like the Richelieu, the stats would be 6/6/5/5. Comments? Suggestions?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the year the Gascoigne should be available. The designer suggested 1943 but I wonder if it should be at least a year later since it hadn't even started in 1940 when France surrendered where at least the Clemenceau had been launched in 1943 (the ship was only about 10% complete in 1940 but you could speculate that it would have been completed in 1942/1943).
I've had a request for the never built French Battleship Gascoigne, a semi sister to the Richelieu, Jean Bart, and started Clemenceau. These ships had 9 six-inch guns which on the Richelieu card (no Clemenceau card yet and the Jean Bart card reflects the ship being incomplete). Designer gave the card a 6/6/5/5 as compared to 8/7/6/6 on the Gloire, which also has 9 six-inch guns. Presumably this is because the Richelieu has its secondaries on either side of the ship, not inline and capable of firing both port and starboard. Enter the Gascoigne. Unlike the Richelieu, Jean Bart or Clemenceau, the main guns were to be arranged one turret fore and one turret aft. The six-inch guns would be inline so like a cruiser, it would be able to fire all of them port or starboard. The person suggesting the stats for the cards thinks this should be reflected in the stats and was proposing a 7/7/6/5 secondary arrangement. Does that sound reasonable? Or should it even be 8/7/6/6 as in the Gloire? It does seem that placement of the guns are being considered in the stats on the cards but if not, then like the Richelieu, the stats would be 6/6/5/5. Comments? Suggestions?
Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the year the Gascoigne should be available. The designer suggested 1943 but I wonder if it should be at least a year later since it hadn't even started in 1940 when France surrendered where at least the Clemenceau had been launched in 1943 (the ship was only about 10% complete in 1940 but you could speculate that it would have been completed in 1942/1943).
See? This place is so busy (despite everything) that it's hard to keep up with all that is happening! Thanks for considering building her!
Großadmiral Swizzle
Browncoat by fandom; Cossack by blood; American by birth; Virginian/Husband/Father by wife; Libertarian by choice; Human by race; Christian by grace.
I produced this card, along with a card for Clemenceau before the Teams did their card. Richelieu has always been considered undercosted/overstated (53 points, ER 5, 9/15/5), and while I kept the inflated gunnery and armor stats for her sisters, I probably over compensated on the cost of Clemenceau, and in turn, Gascogne. They should both probably be a couple points less expensive than my cards show based on the Team's Clemenceau...
THanks. So there is a Clemenceau card already. I thought that the case but for some reason, I can't find it in my set (I do usually check with the forum but in this case I did not).
The Clemenceau is apparently getting stats similar to those of the Bismarck. This makes sense in War at Sea terms as it would then be roughly equivalent to the Bismarck 6 inch gun arrangement (12 six inch guns split port/starboard). SWO-Daddy's card has given the Gascoigne (apparently spelled Gascogne or Gascoigne depending on the source, Conway's uses the latter and I tend to follow them) a 7/7/6/6. That would seem to suggest 12 guns with split fire and 9 guns on a centerline are roughly equivalent? So the rational for not using 8/7/6/6 as we would see on a similarly armed French cruiser perhaps is that the battleship is less maneuverable? Regardless, it sounds like at least 7/7/6/5 is warranted.
Heavygear, thanks for posting the official card. Now the question is, where is mine.? I have the Team Aegir set. I guess I lost track of it as I generally don't use "fantasy" ships. Still, it is nice to know where they are in case I ever change my mind.
SWO-Daddy's card has given the Gascoigne (apparently spelled Gascogne or Gascoigne depending on the source, Conway's uses the latter and I tend to follow them) a 7/7/6/6. That would seem to suggest 12 guns with split fire and 9 guns on a centerline are roughly equivalent? So the rational for not using 8/7/6/6 as we would see on a similarly armed French cruiser perhaps is that the battleship is less maneuverable?
That was kind of my thought on not going all the way to 8/7/6/6, though I think you could easily make the argument for 8/7/6/6. The ship would have had the centerline secondary armament of a light cruiser main battery. Pretty cool actually.
As for the name, it looks like either could be "correct". Wiki (for what ever that's worth) has separate but closely related articles for both. Heavygear would certainly know.
Certainly a very nice looking ship. I love the Shapeways mini...
I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones
THanks. So there is a Clemenceau card already. I thought that the case but for some reason, I can't find it in my set (I do usually check with the forum but in this case I did not).
The Clemenceau is apparently getting stats similar to those of the Bismarck. This makes sense in War at Sea terms as it would then be roughly equivalent to the Bismarck 6 inch gun arrangement (12 six inch guns split port/starboard). SWO-Daddy's card has given the Gascoigne (apparently spelled Gascogne or Gascoigne depending on the source, Conway's uses the latter and I tend to follow them) a 7/7/6/6. That would seem to suggest 12 guns with split fire and 9 guns on a centerline are roughly equivalent? So the rational for not using 8/7/6/6 as we would see on a similarly armed French cruiser perhaps is that the battleship is less maneuverable? Regardless, it sounds like at least 7/7/6/5 is warranted.
Heavygear, thanks for posting the official card. Now the question is, where is mine.? I have the Team Aegir set. I guess I lost track of it as I generally don't use "fantasy" ships. Still, it is nice to know where they are in case I ever change my mind.
The correct name is Gascogne from an ancient french province aera name (Translated Gascony in english), Gascoigne is a soccer player...
Remember that the original layout of the Yamato was to have 6 centerline 6.1" guns, and another 3 on each wing. She could fire 9 to either side and gets a 8/8/7/5 line. Scharnhorst, Gneisnau, Bismarck, Tirpitz all had 6 to a side, with a 7/7/6/5 line. (Overly generous compared to other countries, some say it's a fire-control boost.) German 9-gun light cruiser Nurnberg has 8/7/6/5 for her 9 guns. French 9-gun light cruiser Gloire has 8/7/6/6 for her 9 guns. Japanese Musashi gets 6/6/5/4 for her 6 guns.
There's a lot of inconsistency there.
Großadmiral Swizzle
Browncoat by fandom; Cossack by blood; American by birth; Virginian/Husband/Father by wife; Libertarian by choice; Human by race; Christian by grace.
Remember that the original layout of the Yamato was to have 6 centerline 6.1" guns, and another 3 on each wing. She could fire 9 to either side and gets a 8/8/7/5 line. Scharnhorst, Gneisnau, Bismarck, Tirpitz all had 6 to a side, with a 7/7/6/5 line. (Overly generous compared to other countries, some say it's a fire-control boost.) German 9-gun light cruiser Nurnberg has 8/7/6/5 for her 9 guns. French 9-gun light cruiser Gloire has 8/7/6/6 for her 9 guns. Japanese Musashi gets 6/6/5/4 for her 6 guns.
There's a lot of inconsistency there.
Secondaries are not calculated the same way as primaries You quote here data from Cruiser primaries which cannot be compared to battleships secondaries (Most of the time main tracking systems were better than secondaries tracking systems, hence the difference of FP)
Post by Awesome_Pirate_Ninja_Master on Feb 16, 2018 17:31:17 GMT
The problem here is that there's a lot of operational performance and functional nuance that gets lost when we talk about representing complex machines from almost 80 years ago with four numbers. Unfortunately that's just the nature of the game, it's compounded further by this instance being a never built variant. We can strive to be as accurate as possible with the information at hand, but it's impossible to get much beyond 'close enough' with the game as it's structured.