P1Y Frances **Done**

au64
Deck E playtester

Posts: 1,847

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 11, 2020 1:19:58 GMT

Quote

Post by au64 on Sept 11, 2020 1:19:58 GMT

Sept 10, 2020 23:24:08 GMT flakstruk said:

It isnt the only SA. Read the whole thread.

Harrass from a distance, excellent endurance and kamikaze for flavour

Not sure who this was directed at ("Read the whole thread")... I'm just asking what if we went with PtA instead of Harass? Does it open more doors and make it a more interesting unit than a PB version of the Jill?

Without the Harass and with PtA we might even be able to make it a 10pt unit instead of a possible 11+pt unit.

Now to be fair, we should compare it to the 1941 "Val" and the 1942 "Judy" which both only have PtA. But Since both are carrier based and that's there only SA, I really don't see a downside with having this unit have it. It would also be the only IJN PB with the PtA SA.

I'm throwing it out there and asking for an open mind to contemplate it.

To be completely transparent... I'm also not a fan of Range 1 Air attacks at all. I think they tend to be overpowered and hard to deal with (especially if brought with a mix of in sector and R1 attacks) unless you specifically build to combat them.

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 11, 2020 1:22:16 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Sept 11, 2020 1:22:16 GMT

Going through the thread I think this is where we are at. Or not?

P1Y Frances
Maker: Yokosuka
Introduced: 1944
Wingspan: 65 ft 7 in
Length: 49 ft 3 in
Speed: 340 mph at 19,344 ft
Forumini Speed: 19
Service Ceiling: 30, 800 ft
Armament: 2 x 20mm Type 99 Cannon (front and rear facing) 2,205 lbs bombs or 1 1,764 lb torpedo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggested Stats (open for discussion)

Aircraft
Patrol bomber
Year: 1944
Cost:?
Bomb: 8
TT: 2
A/VA/HP: 5/8/1

Excellent Endurance - Once per game, at the beginning of the Air Mission phase, you may remove a Rearming counter from this unit.
Harass From a Distance - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. When this unit makes a range 1 attack, it can't benefit from the Expert Torpedoes ability.
Kamikaze Attack - This unit can make a 10 dice Bomb attack instead of a Torpedo attack during your Air Attack phase. Destroy this unit after the attack.

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mnnorthstars
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,324

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 11, 2020 2:02:41 GMT

Quote

Post by mnnorthstars on Sept 11, 2020 2:02:41 GMT

That’s one proposal and the other proposal is Determined Attack instead of Harass from a Distance. The first idea was to give this Press the Attack, but then it could make a Bomb attack but not a Torpedo.

Or we could use the Martin B-10 suicide run.

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SWO_Daddy
Deck E developer

Posts: 6,016

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 11, 2020 2:12:07 GMT

Quote

Post by SWO_Daddy on Sept 11, 2020 2:12:07 GMT

Sept 11, 2020 1:22:16 GMT weedsrock2 said:

Going through the thread I think this is where we are at. Or not?

P1Y Frances
Maker: Yokosuka
Introduced: 1944
Wingspan: 65 ft 7 in
Length: 49 ft 3 in
Speed: 340 mph at 19,344 ft
Forumini Speed: 19
Service Ceiling: 30, 800 ft
Armament: 2 x 20mm Type 99 Cannon (front and rear facing) 2,205 lbs bombs or 1 1,764 lb torpedo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggested Stats (open for discussion)

Aircraft
Patrol bomber
Year: 1944
Cost:?
Bomb: 8
TT: 2
A/VA/HP: 5/8/1

Excellent Endurance - Once per game, at the beginning of the Air Mission phase, you may remove a Rearming counter from this unit.
Harass From a Distance - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. When this unit makes a range 1 attack, it can't benefit from the Expert Torpedoes ability.
Kamikaze Attack - This unit can make a 10 dice Bomb attack instead of a Torpedo attack during your Air Attack phase. Destroy this unit after the attack.

Works for me.

I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way.
- Captain John Paul Jones

au64 Deck E playtester Posts: 1,847	P1Y Frances Done Sept 12, 2020 18:37:22 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by au64 on Sept 12, 2020 18:37:22 GMT I still prefer Press the Attack (or Determined Attack) over Harass From a Distance... it'll come out as a cheaper more flexible unit. It will also keep it more balanced against non-US fleets. Just my .02 cents.

weedsrock2
Administrator

Posts: 5,199

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 12, 2020 23:29:36 GMT

Quote

Post by weedsrock2 on Sept 12, 2020 23:29:36 GMT

Sept 12, 2020 18:37:22 GMT au64 said:

I still prefer Press the Attack (or Determined Attack) over Harass From a Distance... it'll come out as a cheaper more flexible unit. It will also keep it more balanced against non-US fleets.

Just my .02 cents.

I don't like to see Press the Attack on Patrol Bombers. That SA is meant to represent a true dive bomber making a dive through heavy opposition.

Determined Attack was a more universal variant devised for Patrol Bombers that did level or glide bombing or torpedo runs. I does the same thing, but it is more flexible.

Determined Attack - Whenever this unit is aborted by a Ship's Antiair attack, you may roll a die. On a 1, destroy this unit. On a 4 or higher, this unit can make either a Bomb attack or a Torpedo attack during the Air Attack phase. You get -1 on each attack die for that attack, or roll one less attack die for that Torpedo attack.

But I would argue this is of equal value to Harass from a Distance. I know from working on all these decks that virtually every bomber has someone suggest Press or Determined Attack. I don't like to see that SA mechanic overused personally. But I admit a Frances pilot had to be pretty determined to fly through USN air defenses in 1945.

That said, I am not a big fan of Harass either. So take your pick I guess.

Last Edit: Sept 12, 2020 23:30:35 GMT by weedsrock2

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Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!

flakstruk
Deck E developer

Posts: 9,839

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 13, 2020 2:10:38 GMT via mobile Theaetetus likes this

Quote

Post by flakstruk on Sept 13, 2020 2:10:38 GMT

Japan has multiple press the attack options.

A harrass from the distance frances supplements the carrier based jill rather than replacing it. Youll get 75% utilization in the first 4 turns without the expense of a carrier. And without access to expert bonuses.

It becomes the fourth plane in a cap3 strike group or the basis of second strike group for a 2x cap3 build.

Euronavy concerns are unfounder as the kondor, jill and greif are already in the wild and this is a flexibility option rather than a power option

mnnorthstars Deck E developer Posts: 9,324	P1Y Frances Done Sept 13, 2020 2:13:32 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by mnnorthstars on Sept 13, 2020 2:13:32 GMT Also the Betty.
	Keeper of the Leigh Light Join Club Vichy!

waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 14, 2020 0:04:39 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Sept 14, 2020 0:04:39 GMT

Yeah that is a sweet unit with EE; Kamikaze and Harass from a distance;

But reading the words from the SA itself; it can't benefit from the Expert Torpedo Ability; since when can a Patrol Bomber benefit from that anyway.

Come on;; some units just don't fit the original intent; if you need it that bad just reword the SA;

OPG you can make a range one TT attack and that a stretch !!!

SWO_Daddy
Deck E developer

Posts: 6,016

P1Y Frances **Done** Sept 14, 2020 0:59:31 GMT

Quote

Post by SWO_Daddy on Sept 14, 2020 0:59:31 GMT

I'm still good with this combo...

Excellent Endurance - Once per game, at the beginning of the Air Mission phase, you may remove a Rearming counter from this unit.
Harass From a Distance - This unit's Torpedo attack has range 1. When this unit makes a range 1 attack, it can't benefit from the Expert Torpedoes ability.
Kamikaze Attack - This unit can make a 10 dice Bomb attack instead of a Torpedo attack during your Air Attack phase. Destroy this unit after the attack.

I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way.
- Captain John Paul Jones

weedsrock2 Administrator Posts: 5,199	P1Y Frances Done Oct 7, 2020 3:57:52 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 7, 2020 3:57:52 GMT It looks to me like the three SAs are decided. Ready for cost?
	The IJN Carrier Liberation Force - "Because We Care" Join the IJNCVLF. Service Guarantees Citizenship!

au64 Deck E playtester Posts: 1,847	P1Y Frances Done Oct 7, 2020 14:47:42 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by au64 on Oct 7, 2020 14:47:42 GMT While not a fan, I can support the Harass From a Distance... let's go ahead to pricing so we can playtest this bad boy.

Theaetetus Forumini Rear Admiral Posts: 4,924	P1Y Frances Done Oct 7, 2020 16:51:41 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Theaetetus on Oct 7, 2020 16:51:41 GMT 10? (It being roughly comparable to Peggy, in that it has bit more striking power at the cost of LDA)
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waratsea4
Forumini Lieutenant

Posts: 839

P1Y Frances **Done** Oct 8, 2020 3:55:54 GMT

Quote

Post by waratsea4 on Oct 8, 2020 3:55:54 GMT

Harass from a distance

Again i've got to laugh;; your giving a Patrol Bomber a Torpedo Bomber SA

Oh thats right it doesn't matter anyway a PB can't get that SA and it would be senseless to rewrite it;; kind of like

Valiant Stand and Battleship Killer::

I guess RB didn't know what he was doing when he gave the Jill that SA and it hasn't been used since.

Finnish Him Off;; is not in the IJN PB inventory and i think 3 torpedo die are better than one; this is a 5 armor thats a tough plane

plus you can get a potential 9 bomb die; seen any Judy's lately.

Drop the stupid Kamikaze SA and make it 9 points you've got a lot of pop for the cost.

Last Edit: Oct 8, 2020 3:59:17 GMT by waratsea4

SWO_Daddy Deck E developer Posts: 6,016	P1Y Frances Done Oct 13, 2020 4:30:22 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by SWO_Daddy on Oct 13, 2020 4:30:22 GMT To clarify, the torpedo stat with Harass from a Distance would be 2/1, yes? If so, I think 11.
	I wish to have no connection with any ship that does not sail fast; for I intend to go in harm's way. - Captain John Paul Jones

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P1Y Frances Done

Post by au64 on Sept 11, 2020 1:19:58 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Sept 11, 2020 1:22:16 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Sept 11, 2020 2:02:41 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on Sept 11, 2020 2:12:07 GMT

Post by au64 on Sept 12, 2020 18:37:22 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Sept 12, 2020 23:29:36 GMT

Post by flakstruk on Sept 13, 2020 2:10:38 GMT

Post by mnnorthstars on Sept 13, 2020 2:13:32 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Sept 14, 2020 0:04:39 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on Sept 14, 2020 0:59:31 GMT

Post by weedsrock2 on Oct 7, 2020 3:57:52 GMT

Post by au64 on Oct 7, 2020 14:47:42 GMT

Post by Theaetetus on Oct 7, 2020 16:51:41 GMT

Post by waratsea4 on Oct 8, 2020 3:55:54 GMT

Post by SWO_Daddy on Oct 13, 2020 4:30:22 GMT

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