Post by firesdstny on Apr 6, 2018 6:20:13 GMT
Hi all, I want to at least start this project here and maybe take it all the way to the end. I think this project has great potential for evolving beyond what I am thinking of right now, but I've at least started to think about how this could actually be implemented in a real sense as an add-on to the game. I'll discuss more of that below. Please feel free to contribute ideas.
I will need a card-maker as well as I am not at all photo-shop/illustrator savvy, so anyone who'd be willing to turn these ideas into cards is more than welcome. As far as an actual printing, I think we're a LONG way off from that right now. This is still the idea stage!
ONWARD!
Right now, in terms of implementation into the game I see two avenues for the cards to fall into: I) Fleet Building and II) Game Play Effects
I) FLEET BUILDING
These would be cards that would cost you points from your fleet build like units, but they would actually be unit Add-Ons. They would represent equipment upgrades, modern refits, Veteran Action, etc.
For the most part you would be paying some of your fleet build points to enhance your units right from the start. Two things would need to be considered - A) unit scaling, and B) amount of enhancement possible. Ticat also added an idea for C)"squad bonuses" if certain unit combinations are present. I'm all for this (cool idea!), but I think there should be a cost for the gains as well, so I would put that type of card into the Fleet Building category.
Many years ago I played some Magic: The Gathering and while I am not trying to make W@S: The Gathering here, there are certainly some ideas from one CCG that could blend into what is trying to be created here. The types of cards that would apply to FLEET BUILDING are most synonymous with Enchantments in MtG (at least how they were 20 years ago when I played). There were two types then too : Local Enchantments that were placed on specific units to bolster or give effects to that unit, or Global Enchantments that stayed with a player and bolstered the player or several of his units.
The Enhancement cards (very close spelling to enchantment) would be akin to the Local Enchantments, while the existing Admirals cards (which could be printed as part of this deck), or the proposed squad bonus cards would be more like the Global Enchantments. Definitely different from MtG however, all Enhancements or Admiral/Squad cards would have to be given/declared before the game starts and would be part of the fleet construction phase. Also unlike MtG, I do not envision that either type (Local/Global) would be "removable" as part of gameplay. Once bought and paid for, they are now a part of that unit and/or that fleet until the game ends.
IA) Unit Scaling: One of the things that is always brought up when discussing the cost of an SA is the same SA's are worth different amounts to different ships. For example, Desperate AA is worth far less on a DD with 4AA than on a BB with 8AA both in terms of the damage that can be done, but also on the relative value of the units that those AA scores are protecting - If the DD aborts a plane - meh it's a DD, if the BB aborts the plane you potentially saved a hull point off a unit that has a good chance of surviving to the end game.
So to address this I would make either Enhancement cards that are unit-type specific (i.e. repeat cards for DD, Cruiser, BB, CV) or make an enhancement card with a scaled cost (i.e. this upgrade costs 1 point for a DD or a Cruiser, 2 points for a Carrier, and 3 points for a BB). The scaled cost would likely have to be spelled out on the card, but since each card is basically adding one SA to the unit there should be plenty of room for "interaction notes" or other clarifiers on the cards including a costing scale. The most likely scenario is actually to have some of both types. Certain SA's only apply to specific ship types anyway while others could apply to multiple types or even all of them.
IIB) Enhancement Limits: I definitely do not want to add the ability for players to create one all-powerful super-ship laden with the most desirable SA's. One way to control this of course is through the cost of the Enhancements. Start adding a bunch of enhancements and your well-costed original unit starts adding up in price, but it's still one unit. Practicality/fairness I think dictate that in addition to the cost, however, there should also be a limit to the number of enhancements a unit can receive. At this point, I'm not sure what the limit should be or what the determiner would be (leaning towards cost of the unit or unit type again), but I think a clear-cut limitation is a good add for this ruleset.
IIIC) Squad Bonuses: Several historical squads of units achieved levels of fame or infamy for themselves during the war. Many players build these squads (or at least parts of these squads) into their fleets for fun, and the so Ticat1 proposed squad bonus cards that would be a way of both recognizing and encouraging players to do that rather than min/maxing their fleets. At the same time, the squad bonus is still an enhancement so paying a fleet build point premium to get the bonuses to those units makes sense. You'd be paying for a card that recognizes part of your fleet as members of various squads but then also grants all members some type of bonus related to that squadron. A most obvious example would be the Kido Butai. The premium to be paid I think would be an initial outlay, possibly scaling to size of the match, or with an additional per-unit cost. Using the Kido Butai (KB) as an example a partial KB build in a 100 point match could cost 3 points for the designation + 1 point (1%) of the match size so 4 points. OR it could cost 3 points for the designation + 1 point per unit that is a part of the partial build. The most likely outcome is that both ideas could be implemented for different squadrons depending on the squadron's purpose and the value of the squad bonus.
Early Thoughts on Possible Cards:
Local Enhancements:
Damage Control, Veteran AA, Equipment Upgrades (specific-ish i.e. Radar upgrades, AA upgrade), Ace Pilot (fighter), Hedgehog (DD), Night Fighter, Aggressive Captain, Squad Leader (add flag)
Squad Bonus:
Kido Butai, Task Force 58, Italian 1st Div/1st Squad, etc.
Admirals? - Keep or Redo
II) GAME-PLAY EFFECTS
These cards would be more along the lines of an "events" deck that would affect regular game-play. Ideally, I would want both online and face-to-face game-play to be identical, but there is value in having a "hand" of cards in A) face-to-face play that is impossible in the current forum-based B) online environment. So I would want to design cards that could be played either style. I think I've worked out a good way to accomplish this, but it would definitely need some play-testing and tweaking to see if it works as intended. Generally, W@S games are relatively short so a larger variety of cards produces a larger variety of possible outcomes for the game.
Some of these C) cards types offer i) Just-In-Time SAs(OPG style SA's), ii) Damage Effects (Neg SA's added to units who have been damaged), and iii) Events that would alter global game-play for that turn (Rough Seas)
IIA) Face to Face: When you are actually sitting in with a person playing a face-to-face game, a "hidden hand" of cards becomes a real possibility. I imagine there being one deck of cards that is shuffled, and each player has a hand of #TBD cards. The cards will include directions for specifically when they can be played during a turn, but at most a player could only play #TBD cards on their turn. Cards played would then be replaced from the top cards of the deck. There could/should also be a mechanic for discarding unwanted cards with a limit.
IIB) Online: As a primarily online player, one of the things I struggled with this concept was how to translate it to an online world. The Fleet Building cards are "easy" - they are public knowledge part of the fleet once fleets have been revealed. The Effects cards are much more difficult as it is impossible in the forum system of online play to have a hidden hand of cards. The solution is - don't hide them and don't have a hand. The cards within the deck will be numbered like the regular unit cards, and each turn players will "draw" a random card from the deck rerolling any duplicates. They must use their card on their turn or discard it. Both players will know which card was drawn and which effect could be played potentially altering their decisions during the game. It is entirely possible that based on the cards chosen randomly the effects never actually affect the gameplay and while disappointing I think that would be only rare cases. Alternatively, Solomiranthius proposed that at the beginning of the match each player could choose #TBD cards from the overall deck to be put into the in-game draw pile so that certain effects were more likely. There are certainly benefits to having some control over the frequency of different events, but a purely random draw could be fun too.
IIC) Card Types: For the card creator, I see these types of cards as having slightly different color schemes to indicate what type of card category they fall into. I also envision them including exactly when in a turn they can be played.
IICi) In-time SA's: For the most part these would typically immediate instances of the already available OPG SA's from the units, but new OPG-style SA's could be included. Possible Cards: Generate Smoke, Desperate AA, Near Miss, Crash Dive, Lucky Shot, Rescue Survivors, Suicide Attack (planes), Evade Torpedoes, Damage Control, Aggressive Captain (add to init roll) etc.
IICii) Damage Effects: One thing that real naval combat histories emphasized was that as unit took damage their fighting effectiveness degraded often quickly. There is no system for that in W@S until a unit is crippled. These cards could add damage effects, but based on the "time-gated" rate at which these game-play effect cards can be played, unit degradation is still a gradual process. I view some of these cards as MtG-like enchantments, but they are Negative SA's applied to units that have been damaged during the turn. Others serve as one-time only negative results. Also, since for online play you would HAVE to play the card this turn, you may want to play Jammed Mount on BB, but the best you can manage is to put it on a cruiser or carrier because that is all you damaged this turn. Possible Cards: Engine/Boiler Damage (add a slow roll), Rudder Damage (unit can only move a certain direction), Destroyed Turret (lose attack dice), Damaged AA mount (lose AA dice), Critical Hit (extra hull point of damage), Jammed Mount (add Jammed Mount SA), Bridge Hit (Lose Flag/Init bonuses), Heavy Flak (aircraft aborted but not destroyed get extra rearm counter), Power Failure, etc.
IICiii) Events: These cards would slightly alter the regular gameplay by causing a Global effect to apply for the turn. Possible Cards: Rough Seas (-1 to attack dice and or -1 to movement and or add a slow roll to every unit), High Winds (no or limited carrier operations), Fog/Squall (adds concealment -smoke- to a sector or sectors), Stiff Resistance (no objective claim if ships within 2 sectors attacking ships trying to claim objective), etc.
I will need a card-maker as well as I am not at all photo-shop/illustrator savvy, so anyone who'd be willing to turn these ideas into cards is more than welcome. As far as an actual printing, I think we're a LONG way off from that right now. This is still the idea stage!
ONWARD!
Right now, in terms of implementation into the game I see two avenues for the cards to fall into: I) Fleet Building and II) Game Play Effects
I) FLEET BUILDING
These would be cards that would cost you points from your fleet build like units, but they would actually be unit Add-Ons. They would represent equipment upgrades, modern refits, Veteran Action, etc.
For the most part you would be paying some of your fleet build points to enhance your units right from the start. Two things would need to be considered - A) unit scaling, and B) amount of enhancement possible. Ticat also added an idea for C)"squad bonuses" if certain unit combinations are present. I'm all for this (cool idea!), but I think there should be a cost for the gains as well, so I would put that type of card into the Fleet Building category.
Many years ago I played some Magic: The Gathering and while I am not trying to make W@S: The Gathering here, there are certainly some ideas from one CCG that could blend into what is trying to be created here. The types of cards that would apply to FLEET BUILDING are most synonymous with Enchantments in MtG (at least how they were 20 years ago when I played). There were two types then too : Local Enchantments that were placed on specific units to bolster or give effects to that unit, or Global Enchantments that stayed with a player and bolstered the player or several of his units.
The Enhancement cards (very close spelling to enchantment) would be akin to the Local Enchantments, while the existing Admirals cards (which could be printed as part of this deck), or the proposed squad bonus cards would be more like the Global Enchantments. Definitely different from MtG however, all Enhancements or Admiral/Squad cards would have to be given/declared before the game starts and would be part of the fleet construction phase. Also unlike MtG, I do not envision that either type (Local/Global) would be "removable" as part of gameplay. Once bought and paid for, they are now a part of that unit and/or that fleet until the game ends.
IA) Unit Scaling: One of the things that is always brought up when discussing the cost of an SA is the same SA's are worth different amounts to different ships. For example, Desperate AA is worth far less on a DD with 4AA than on a BB with 8AA both in terms of the damage that can be done, but also on the relative value of the units that those AA scores are protecting - If the DD aborts a plane - meh it's a DD, if the BB aborts the plane you potentially saved a hull point off a unit that has a good chance of surviving to the end game.
So to address this I would make either Enhancement cards that are unit-type specific (i.e. repeat cards for DD, Cruiser, BB, CV) or make an enhancement card with a scaled cost (i.e. this upgrade costs 1 point for a DD or a Cruiser, 2 points for a Carrier, and 3 points for a BB). The scaled cost would likely have to be spelled out on the card, but since each card is basically adding one SA to the unit there should be plenty of room for "interaction notes" or other clarifiers on the cards including a costing scale. The most likely scenario is actually to have some of both types. Certain SA's only apply to specific ship types anyway while others could apply to multiple types or even all of them.
IIB) Enhancement Limits: I definitely do not want to add the ability for players to create one all-powerful super-ship laden with the most desirable SA's. One way to control this of course is through the cost of the Enhancements. Start adding a bunch of enhancements and your well-costed original unit starts adding up in price, but it's still one unit. Practicality/fairness I think dictate that in addition to the cost, however, there should also be a limit to the number of enhancements a unit can receive. At this point, I'm not sure what the limit should be or what the determiner would be (leaning towards cost of the unit or unit type again), but I think a clear-cut limitation is a good add for this ruleset.
IIIC) Squad Bonuses: Several historical squads of units achieved levels of fame or infamy for themselves during the war. Many players build these squads (or at least parts of these squads) into their fleets for fun, and the so Ticat1 proposed squad bonus cards that would be a way of both recognizing and encouraging players to do that rather than min/maxing their fleets. At the same time, the squad bonus is still an enhancement so paying a fleet build point premium to get the bonuses to those units makes sense. You'd be paying for a card that recognizes part of your fleet as members of various squads but then also grants all members some type of bonus related to that squadron. A most obvious example would be the Kido Butai. The premium to be paid I think would be an initial outlay, possibly scaling to size of the match, or with an additional per-unit cost. Using the Kido Butai (KB) as an example a partial KB build in a 100 point match could cost 3 points for the designation + 1 point (1%) of the match size so 4 points. OR it could cost 3 points for the designation + 1 point per unit that is a part of the partial build. The most likely outcome is that both ideas could be implemented for different squadrons depending on the squadron's purpose and the value of the squad bonus.
Early Thoughts on Possible Cards:
Local Enhancements:
Damage Control, Veteran AA, Equipment Upgrades (specific-ish i.e. Radar upgrades, AA upgrade), Ace Pilot (fighter), Hedgehog (DD), Night Fighter, Aggressive Captain, Squad Leader (add flag)
Squad Bonus:
Kido Butai, Task Force 58, Italian 1st Div/1st Squad, etc.
Admirals? - Keep or Redo
II) GAME-PLAY EFFECTS
These cards would be more along the lines of an "events" deck that would affect regular game-play. Ideally, I would want both online and face-to-face game-play to be identical, but there is value in having a "hand" of cards in A) face-to-face play that is impossible in the current forum-based B) online environment. So I would want to design cards that could be played either style. I think I've worked out a good way to accomplish this, but it would definitely need some play-testing and tweaking to see if it works as intended. Generally, W@S games are relatively short so a larger variety of cards produces a larger variety of possible outcomes for the game.
Some of these C) cards types offer i) Just-In-Time SAs(OPG style SA's), ii) Damage Effects (Neg SA's added to units who have been damaged), and iii) Events that would alter global game-play for that turn (Rough Seas)
IIA) Face to Face: When you are actually sitting in with a person playing a face-to-face game, a "hidden hand" of cards becomes a real possibility. I imagine there being one deck of cards that is shuffled, and each player has a hand of #TBD cards. The cards will include directions for specifically when they can be played during a turn, but at most a player could only play #TBD cards on their turn. Cards played would then be replaced from the top cards of the deck. There could/should also be a mechanic for discarding unwanted cards with a limit.
IIB) Online: As a primarily online player, one of the things I struggled with this concept was how to translate it to an online world. The Fleet Building cards are "easy" - they are public knowledge part of the fleet once fleets have been revealed. The Effects cards are much more difficult as it is impossible in the forum system of online play to have a hidden hand of cards. The solution is - don't hide them and don't have a hand. The cards within the deck will be numbered like the regular unit cards, and each turn players will "draw" a random card from the deck rerolling any duplicates. They must use their card on their turn or discard it. Both players will know which card was drawn and which effect could be played potentially altering their decisions during the game. It is entirely possible that based on the cards chosen randomly the effects never actually affect the gameplay and while disappointing I think that would be only rare cases. Alternatively, Solomiranthius proposed that at the beginning of the match each player could choose #TBD cards from the overall deck to be put into the in-game draw pile so that certain effects were more likely. There are certainly benefits to having some control over the frequency of different events, but a purely random draw could be fun too.
IIC) Card Types: For the card creator, I see these types of cards as having slightly different color schemes to indicate what type of card category they fall into. I also envision them including exactly when in a turn they can be played.
IICi) In-time SA's: For the most part these would typically immediate instances of the already available OPG SA's from the units, but new OPG-style SA's could be included. Possible Cards: Generate Smoke, Desperate AA, Near Miss, Crash Dive, Lucky Shot, Rescue Survivors, Suicide Attack (planes), Evade Torpedoes, Damage Control, Aggressive Captain (add to init roll) etc.
IICii) Damage Effects: One thing that real naval combat histories emphasized was that as unit took damage their fighting effectiveness degraded often quickly. There is no system for that in W@S until a unit is crippled. These cards could add damage effects, but based on the "time-gated" rate at which these game-play effect cards can be played, unit degradation is still a gradual process. I view some of these cards as MtG-like enchantments, but they are Negative SA's applied to units that have been damaged during the turn. Others serve as one-time only negative results. Also, since for online play you would HAVE to play the card this turn, you may want to play Jammed Mount on BB, but the best you can manage is to put it on a cruiser or carrier because that is all you damaged this turn. Possible Cards: Engine/Boiler Damage (add a slow roll), Rudder Damage (unit can only move a certain direction), Destroyed Turret (lose attack dice), Damaged AA mount (lose AA dice), Critical Hit (extra hull point of damage), Jammed Mount (add Jammed Mount SA), Bridge Hit (Lose Flag/Init bonuses), Heavy Flak (aircraft aborted but not destroyed get extra rearm counter), Power Failure, etc.
IICiii) Events: These cards would slightly alter the regular gameplay by causing a Global effect to apply for the turn. Possible Cards: Rough Seas (-1 to attack dice and or -1 to movement and or add a slow roll to every unit), High Winds (no or limited carrier operations), Fog/Squall (adds concealment -smoke- to a sector or sectors), Stiff Resistance (no objective claim if ships within 2 sectors attacking ships trying to claim objective), etc.
