Playing off Admiraltee’s argument here weeds, Bismarck being the most powerful battleship in the Atlantic, and also the heaviest, for me means she should be a hull 6. Yes, for standard tonnage she doesn’t make the cutoff, but I feel as though it’s close enough, and there is a major disparity between her and the many many other hull 5’s in the Atlantic (good example being Royal Oak).
There's more of an argument, IIRC, for Iowa to not be a Hull 6 but eh. That ship sailed thanks to the First Set being designed as a balanced offering
I just read the article, and it was very good. However, all the people who as of late seem to have second guessed Bismarck’s capabilities forget one key thing, that she put up with over an hour of shelling of 16, 14, and 8 inch guns. My book on the Bismarck states that in all, 2876 shells were fired at the Germans in the Bismarck’s final stand, with 719 of those being the 16, 14 inch guns. It is also estimated that as many as 400 may have struck home. To me, this is what makes the Bismarck deserving of the six hull. Yes, her armor wasn’t the best in the world, but her structuring and compartmentalization was incredible.
He took all those hits before sinking yes, but at close range where those hits weren't endangering his watertight integrity. Also it didn't take nearly that many hits to convert him from a warship to a wrecked hulk. Well before he sunk he was functionally destroyed and had no further ability to sail, steer, shoot, aim, communicate, etc. I'd argue that's when the piece would be removed from the board.
Here's a good read on how antiquated Bismarck's armor actually was. I'm not particularly impressed by him, at 10k tons more than the treaty battleships he doesn't offer much over them.
That's actually a very poor read about Bismarcks armour..
I mean, here's the only bit about it, and it's... well, not useful...
Bismarck and Bayern also shared strong internal protection, and were well-built ships (though British engineers had been rather scornful of the Bayern class in post-war testing). Their armor schemes were very similar, with Bismarck sporting thicker deck armor but a thinner armored belt than Bayern.
Generally speaking I think game wise it also makes more sense for Bismarck to have 6 hull. The Royal Navy so outnumbers the Germans in the game that they need some type of advantage that isn’t a fantasy BB. The Bismarck would also get “nerfed” a bit, I would reduce its AA to at best 7. Her point cost would go up, but she would have more use.
I am of the opinion that at the start of the war ... Bismarck was one of the toughest and meanest battleships out there. (Her AA is overstated, however that is true of many, many ships, so not sure what to make of that.) As such, I think the original card suffered from the "Deck 1" syndrome, and was made for deck 1 balance, with no expectations of being "balanced" against future BB's. So, here are my interpretations of both the Bismarck and the Tirpitz (from my 4th deck) with make them more powerful (and costly).
I believe these cards are a better basis for FdG (a.k.a. "Freddie") and the four later "H-class" designs which are all in my first deck (same thread):
Thanks to Bunyan and other members of Team Seas Ablaze that helped me with those cards.
I like your rendition. I don’t think the Bismarck deserves ER5, maybe the Tirpitz does, but IMO not the Bismarck. I really think the Bismarck deserves hull 6 for a few more points.
The German 15" guns were the best 15" guns in the world. They reloaded about 50% faster than the 16" guns of that time, and were equipped with excellent radar from the start. They were especially designed to be effective at longer range, when going against deck armor. I saw no evidence of significant differences between the sisters when it comes to their main guns and/or fire control. True, they needed to have their spotter planes in the air to do ER5, which applies to any and all battleships.
I like your rendition. I don’t think the Bismarck deserves ER5, maybe the Tirpitz does, but IMO not the Bismarck. I really think the Bismarck deserves hull 6 for a few more points.
I think that the worst thing done to the original cards, was armor 8 instead of 9. However, I am happy with my "8 1/2" armor versions, which add some flavor to the game.
Just a side note, now FdG is a better deal, because these are no longer as cheap as they were.
Großadmiral Swizzle
Browncoat by fandom; Cossack by blood; American by birth; Virginian/Husband/Father by wife; Libertarian by choice; Human by race; Christian by grace.
I just read the article, and it was very good. However, all the people who as of late seem to have second guessed Bismarck’s capabilities forget one key thing, that she put up with over an hour of shelling of 16, 14, and 8 inch guns. My book on the Bismarck states that in all, 2876 shells were fired at the Germans in the Bismarck’s final stand, with 719 of those being the 16, 14 inch guns. It is also estimated that as many as 400 may have struck home. To me, this is what makes the Bismarck deserving of the six hull. Yes, her armor wasn’t the best in the world, but her structuring and compartmentalization was incredible.
He took all those hits before sinking yes, but at close range where those hits weren't endangering his watertight integrity. Also it didn't take nearly that many hits to convert him from a warship to a wrecked hulk. Well before he sunk he was functionally destroyed and had no further ability to sail, steer, shoot, aim, communicate, etc. I'd argue that's when the piece would be removed from the board.
Syzmo, you beat me to it. Staying afloat is in no way equivalent to maintaining combat capabilities, and, as I understand it, Bismarck had some particularly serious issues in said department (esp. in how her communication lines were set up, apparently being positioned above the armored deck, but I could be mistaken). Nagato001, I recommend going to the KBismarck forums where naval analysts/experts have discussed these issues in depth. One other thing: as far as I am concerned, any battleship manned by a German crew during the First and Second World Wars was a very, very, serious threat. Those guys knew how to use their ships.
Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington
I like your rendition. I don’t think the Bismarck deserves ER5, maybe the Tirpitz does, but IMO not the Bismarck. I really think the Bismarck deserves hull 6 for a few more points.
On KBismarck, there is a very interesting discussion on what German radars of the Second World War were truly capable of. Apparently, there is evidence that Tirpitz could have been equipped with Radar on par with that of the Iowas after 1943 (if I recall correctly, they were just as good in the area of Fire-Control but not at searching, but I could be mistaken).
Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington
This is why RAEVSKI reverse engineered the "hard" stat equivalents from RBs cards. We could argue "soft" characteristics and modifications forever. I much, much prefer to let the ships actual specifications map to the stats and use SA's to adjust for "soft" considerations. The specs and stats are not always as black and white as we would like, but it is a better starting point than fan "discussions" when making cards. Of course the rest of the time fan discussions are what make the board interesting!
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I like your rendition. I don’t think the Bismarck deserves ER5, maybe the Tirpitz does, but IMO not the Bismarck. I really think the Bismarck deserves hull 6 for a few more points.
On KBismarck, there is a very interesting discussion on what German radars of the Second World War were truly capable of. Apparently, there is evidence that Tirpitz could have been equipped with Radar on par with that of the Iowas after 1943 (if I recall correctly, they were just as good in the area of Fire-Control but not at searching, but I could be mistaken).
From several books I have read I have the impression the Kreigsmarine's biggest issue with radar was that they were afraid to use it. They kept their radar turned off most of the time because they were more afraid of the enemy detecting their radar sweep signal than the benefit of finding the enemy themselves. I would guess this is related to the British having many more ships at sea than the Germans. The Germans relied on "hiding in the huge ocean" while the Brits were actively trying to find the Germans. The British weren't concerned about being detected by the Germans. Anyway, the net result was the Kriegsmarine got very little practical use of their radar. Their doctrine was evidently to only use it during an active engagement, and those were pretty rare of course. I also read the Germans were ahead of the Brits and French on radar development in the 30's, but then let it lag behind for some reason.
The worst was the IJN though. They viewed radar as strictly "defensive" which was the kiss of death in that service. They completely left it in the back room until it was too late. The same with sonar and acoustic listening ASW devices. The short story was the IJN almost completely ignored electronic sensor technology and advancements.
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I think it could be a good move to see a “revamped” set I in the form of a team deck, with all the same units, but the ones that need work redone.
Some of them have been redone (The_Lucky_Y's cards) because they were the worst offenders. However, "generally" the teams have tried to avoid obsoleting official cards while expanding the game.
Großadmiral Swizzle
Browncoat by fandom; Cossack by blood; American by birth; Virginian/Husband/Father by wife; Libertarian by choice; Human by race; Christian by grace.
I think it could be a good move to see a “revamped” set I in the form of a team deck, with all the same units, but the ones that need work redone.
It would be a horrific process that pleased nobody and would probably send the board down in flames IMO. Lucky Y's cards seem to be most accepted revision.
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