Post by carriercrusader on Jan 15, 2020 22:21:14 GMT
HMS Victorious
United States Navy
Ship-Carrier
Year: 1943
Cap: 2
Speed: 2
Cost: 24
MG: 6/6/4/-
AA: 8
A/VA/HP: 5/11/4
Torpedo Defense 1
Expert Dogfighter- Once per turn, you may choose a friendly Fighter. That fighter rolls one extra attack die when making Antiair attacks this turn.
Deck Park- You may base one additional fighter on this unit over its basing capacity. If you return 3 aircraft to this unit during the air return phase, roll a die, and on a 2 or lower, place a rearming counter on one of those units.
British Loan Carrier- British aircraft may base on this unit. You may only use this unit in the Pacific.
Fighter Umbrella- Once per turn, you may choose a friendly Fighter that aborted or destroyed an enemy Aircraft this turn. That Fighter may move to a sector it's adjacent to that contains an enemy Aircraft and make an Antiair attack with a -1 on each attack die against that Aircraft.
Context: During 1943, the US Navy had only one operational carrier in the pacific, so the British lent them the HMS Victorious until the new Essexes could be introduced and the Enterprise could be repaired. If you don't know, Deck Park is the practice of parking planes on the flight deck of a carrier to increase aircraft capacity. You couldn't do this in the Atlantic because of the foul weather, but you could do this in the Pacific. The American commander of the squadron Victorious was in found that she had trouble handling American bombers because of their weight, so she would operate almost exclusively fighters, and the other carrier in the group, the USS Saratoga, would handle operating strike groups.
Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Jan 16, 2020 2:29:39 GMT
Interesting, I had not read much about that. I really wish the citation in that section of the wiki page was better; does anyone around here have a book on British carriers to reference?
Upon a cursory google search, I found the following passage on this site, which seems reliable (https://ww2db.com/ship_spec.php?ship_id=339):
"After a refit at the Norfolk Navy Yard in the United States, Victorious sailed through the Panama Canal for the Pacific Theater on loan to the US Navy; during this time, she had the code name USS Robin, named after the character Robin Hood. Sailing alongside of American carrier Saratoga, she participated in the Solomon Islands Campaign in 1943, including supporting the invasions of Bougainville and New Georgia. During this time she operated 60 British and American Wildcat fighters. She returned to Britain near the end of 1943 when the commissioning of carrier Essex relieved the American need for fleet carriers."
Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington
I would consider giving her an SA restricting her to carrying fighter aircraft, or at least not American strike aircraft.
According to the article, she did carry Avengers during her time with the US fleet. I think that the other SA's make this primarily a fighter carrier, though
I would consider giving her an SA restricting her to carrying fighter aircraft, or at least not American strike aircraft.
According to the article, she did carry Avengers during her time with the US fleet. I think that the other SA's make this primarily a fighter carrier, though
According to the one I attached? I didn't read it thoroughly I'll admit...
Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington
Post by Fear God & Dreadnought! on Jan 16, 2020 23:33:58 GMT
The citation in that particular section of the Wiki page on HMS Victorious is not clear enough in my opinion.
Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington
HMS Victorious did indeed operate Avengers during her time in the Pacific, and at one point, the squadron moved USS Saratoga.
All that said, this topic has come up on the Forum before. Victorious did indeed operate under US tactical/operational control in 1943, but the ship was not "transferred" to the US Navy. She retained her British captain and crew, continued to fly the colors of the Royal Navy, and remained HMS, not USS. A lot gets made of the whole "USS Robin" thing, but as far as I've read, it was just a radio callsign. She was the first example of British carriers being integrated into US carrier groups in the Pacific, a practice that was repeated more frequently later in the war. The cross deck of US Wildcats and a FAA Avenger squadron was somewhat unique, but that capability is already largely covered under Historical Limits in the rulebook (page 41).
In my opinion, there doesn't really need to be a unique Victorious card to represent its operations in the Pacific. She actually operated with Carrier Division 1 for a very short period of time (17 May - 25 Jul) before returning to home waters. She participated in Operation Cartwheel. Just allow a US fleet to include Victorious, and otherwise follow the rules for Historical Limits.
If I was going to do a card for this, I'd call it Operation Cartwheel Victorious, keep the British roundel on it, and simply put an SA on it that allowed its operation in a US fleet under Historical Limits, along with the ability to base US and British planes. After the battle starts, there is nothing in the rules stopping a US player from switching planes around between allied carriers, so this is really about legal fleet builds when playing with Historical Limits. It would also allow a US fleet limited access to British carrier planes, though outside of the Seafire, I'm not sure how big a deal that would be.
Personally, I would not include the over-stuff ability on Victorious's flight deck. There really isn't a mechanic in the game to define "the Pacific". If this ship could do it, why not any of the others in the Illustrious class, some of which operated in the Pacific and/or Indian Ocean as well? It would also make her a near duplicate of the various versions of HMS Indomitable that are out there that use similar SAs to reflect her slightly larger capacity. There are other carriers in the game that could host 60 planes and only got Cap 2. At one point in 1945, USS Essex carried 126 aircraft ( steelnavy.com/essex_data.htm ), but we've never attempted to give her CAP 5. Replenish Aircraft covers that unique event.
I did a little digging on Saratoga's air group during that period. If these pages are accurate, it appears US Wildcats, Dauntlesses, and Avengers operated on Victorious during the period (not hard to believe given the number of sorties flown, at some point the planes would end up on the other deck).
My guess is this was done to test interoperability more than anything else. Given how briefly the ships operated together, its hard to call any of the squadron reassignments "permanent". Funny enough, it provides a little justification for the Brits being able to use US Navy TBDs under Historical Limits, an ability I've always found a bit wonky.
HMS Victorious did indeed operate Avengers during her time in the Pacific, and at one point, the squadron moved USS Saratoga.
All that said, this topic has come up on the Forum before. Victorious did indeed operate under US tactical/operational control in 1943, but the ship was not "transferred" to the US Navy. She retained her British captain and crew, continued to fly the colors of the Royal Navy, and remained HMS, not USS. A lot gets made of the whole "USS Robin" thing, but as far as I've read, it was just a radio callsign. She was the first example of British carriers being integrated into US carrier groups in the Pacific, a practice that was repeated more frequently later in the war. The cross deck of US Wildcats and a FAA Avenger squadron was somewhat unique, but that capability is already largely covered under Historical Limits in the rulebook (page 41).
In my opinion, there doesn't really need to be a unique Victorious card to represent its operations in the Pacific. She actually operated with Carrier Division 1 for a very short period of time (17 May - 25 Jul) before returning to home waters. She participated in Operation Cartwheel. Just allow a US fleet to include Victorious, and otherwise follow the rules for Historical Limits.
If I was going to do a card for this, I'd call it Operation Cartwheel Victorious, keep the British roundel on it, and simply put an SA on it that allowed its operation in a US fleet under Historical Limits, along with the ability to base US and British planes. After the battle starts, there is nothing in the rules stopping a US player from switching planes around between allied carriers, so this is really about legal fleet builds when playing with Historical Limits. It would also allow a US fleet limited access to British carrier planes, though outside of the Seafire, I'm not sure how big a deal that would be.
Personally, I would not include the over-stuff ability on Victorious's flight deck. There really isn't a mechanic in the game to define "the Pacific". If this ship could do it, why not any of the others in the Illustrious class, some of which operated in the Pacific and/or Indian Ocean as well? It would also make her a near duplicate of the various versions of HMS Indomitable that are out there that use similar SAs to reflect her slightly larger capacity. There are other carriers in the game that could host 60 planes and only got Cap 2. At one point in 1945, USS Essex carried 126 aircraft ( steelnavy.com/essex_data.htm ), but we've never attempted to give her CAP 5. Replenish Aircraft covers that unique event.
I did a little digging on Saratoga's air group during that period. If these pages are accurate, it appears US Wildcats, Dauntlesses, and Avengers operated on Victorious during the period (not hard to believe given the number of sorties flown, at some point the planes would end up on the other deck).
My guess is this was done to test interoperability more than anything else. Given how briefly the ships operated together, its hard to call any of the squadron reassignments "permanent". Funny enough, it provides a little justification for the Brits being able to use US Navy TBDs under Historical Limits, an ability I've always found a bit wonky.
I suppose my question is, did she carry (and service/operate effectively) enough of them to actually constitute a unit of them in WAS? I'll need to read those links you provided, but it certainly seems there was a reason why it was decided Victorious would only carry fighters and Saratoga the attack aircraft.
Formerly "Admiral Jacky Fisher."
"It follows then as certain as that night succeeds the day, that without a decisive naval force we can do nothing definitive, and with it, everything honorable and glorious"--George Washington