Is there an analogue to the Kondors over Dakota fleet that the allies can field? Minimal surface elements, vigorous air defense, subs out the wazoo, enough air to hurt subs.
Let me try.
Yorktown 23 Atlanta 12 B-25 x 4 36 Wildcat 7 FM-2 x 2 12 Do 24 7 97 Truculent x 3 36 Silversides x 4 48 Salmon 9 Clyde 10 103
200 points, 19 units
B-25s cripple destroyers, fighters provide top cover or escort, Do 24 pinpoints. Put a Truc on each objective and use the rest of the subs to support.
Took the liberty to post the closest German build with-in the rules of 200 pt builds; I prefer the per rules one
If i may i see one weakness with your proposed USN build; its ability to control objectives
Yorktown 23 1 x Yorrtown =23 Atlanta 12 1 x Alaska =28 B-25 x 4 36 7 x B-25 =63 Wildcat 7 1 x Martlet =06 FM-2 x 2 12 2 x Wildcat =14 Do 24 7 97 134pts Truculent x 3 36 4 x Truculent = 48 Silversides x 4 48 2 x Salmon = 18 Salmon 9 Clyde 10 103 66pts
Reasoning behind my proposal;; German CV's have the; 1 Quantity; 2 MG and 3 CAP; both fleets equal extra dogfighter; Advantage Germany CA is a USN advantage ; the 28 pt allotment if you prefer 2 Ca's can well handle Hipper and Zara and still keep under 20 units. Tough to beat the Kondor's at 6 pts but B-25 gives it a run for it purpose in comparing builds; Close Call especially if you roll six's Fighters; Its all about the Escort; 109's with interceptor can hurt lone PB's went with 3 escorts for best cost; Advantage Germany Subs i think the UK subs give you best shot for the cost; 24 die max Germany; 20 UK 22 against subs; without Audacious Attack; Close Call
KOD is a tough build even with expansion; I guess their is no right or wrong with so many possibilities, still fun to talk about.
Post by mnnorthstars on Sept 10, 2018 21:43:37 GMT
It’s interesting that nobody I’ve seen has posted about this before, since you can do some good Allied KoD with just the first few sets. I like S-13 in this build too since you can spam a bunch of them.
Hornet II 26 Wildcat x 2 14 Hellcat 10 Carrier Corsair 14 B-25 x 4 36 Atlanta 12 Do 24 7 119 S-13 x 7 56 Truculent x 2 24
I did a few moons ago on the other Forum; probably still there.
When i first came upon the KOD the designer boast it was a build that could stop all oncoming builds;; DD swarms;; Large Ships;; Sub Swarms and Air Power;
Kondors would take care of small ship swarms;; Subs;; Large Ships and Subs and if you spent enough on air power to stop the surface ships;; do you have enough on the surface to get past the Subs?? A lot at the time tried and failed.
I often thought of the USN 4 Cap CV's except none have Dog 2 too bad; but if i piked one it would be Hornet
Can't see more than 8 subs that should be enough for all the Allied deficiencies; shooting though a friendly occupied sector is a waste.
Again don't see the need for Advanced fighters at their cost.
All USN Allied Hornet II x1 =26 Hornet II x1 =26 Wildcat x4 =28 Martlet x4 =24 Columbia x1 Boise x1 =28 Quincy x1 Columbia x1 2 =31 B-25 x6 =54 B-25 x6 =54 Mackerel x4 =40 Mackerel x2 =20 Silverside x2 =24 Truculent x3 =36 Salmon x1 =09
I think you just have to limit Allied Subs and PB's to give you enough surface power to make it to an objective, or at least have a surface presents, something the KOD does give you.
Its hard to match the punch of the kondors at 6. B25 is tougher, but doesnt hit as hard at range 1, and at 50% more points. With the wotc cards, the allies are missing a decent 10 point sub. The effective ones are 12, anything cheaper is not real useful
I'd have to agreed the USN with WOTC originals can never accomplish the promise of the KOD
Best USN SUB Barb; have to short yourself one; 5 Barb 60 pts vs 6 510 66pts. PER turn about a 9 torp die roll plus for KOD without Pinpoint or Audacious Attack
Best USN PB Michell; both Kondor and Michell good against small ship swarms. Again to save pts. 6 Michell 54 pts to 7 Kondors 42 pts Opening turn big fire power KOD advantage; but USN could win diminishing return end
I think a Cap 4 USN CV and 4 Wildcats for 54pts vs 64pts for KOD air game helps close the gap a little.
USN with its remaining pts 32pts gives it a big bonus with surface power i'd go with 2 Quincy's.
The KOD was always about the 510 and Kondor very little with Originals to compete against that; unless from some action reports I've read you use the 3 Muashi build You can throw the rest of the KOD in the can if the 510's don't stop it and they better do it quick nothing else is.
A very difficult build to minic as it has stood the test of time. The combination of Wolfpack, Anti-ship missile, the number of air units for placement and pinpointer plays so well.
Modified “Official Kondor” Graf Zepplin X2 @18 for 36 = 36 Bf109 X4 @7 for 28 = 64 Admiral Scheer X1 @20 = 84 Bulcher X1 @15 = 99 U510 X3 @11 for 33 = 132 U552 X2 @13 for 26 = 158 Kondor X7 @6 for 42 = 200
20 Units 200 points
British Alternative with 6 subs HMS Victorious X1 @ 18 = 18 HMS Formidable X1 @ 20 = 38 Martlet X2 @6 for 12 = 50 (CAP) Seafire X2 @8 for 16 = 66 (CAP) Black Prince CL X1 @10 = 76 (heavy AA) Belfast CA X1 @14 = 90 HMS Truculent X3 @12 for 36 = 126 HMS Salmon X2 @9 for 18 = 144 HMS Clyde X1 @10 = 154 Wellington X4 @10 for 40 = 194 Halifax X1 @6 = 200
If the KOD had a weakness it was against the Big BB builds;;
IMO why 6 KOD subs were so good to have, don't know why you would spend more on the U-552 and lose range 1 Torpedo die??
Keeping it original;; I would correct the build by lessening the Kondor's to 6 and adding to the surface fleet.
Modified “Official Kondor”
Graf Zepplin X2 @18 for 36 = 36 Unprecedented CL like MG's Bf109 X4 @7 for 28 = 64 Escort; Protect those Kondors; Intercept anything unescorted Graf Spee X1 @21 = 85 Big boost in MG's Eugenio di Savoia X1 @13 = 98 Helps with DD swarms and a little make up for Kondor loss U510 X6 @11 for 66 = 164 You need the subs Kondor X @6 for 36 = 200 Pinpointer and 1 sector attack priceless;;
I Agree the best Allied answer to the the KOD belongs to the UK with a little hep from its friends.
1 Victorious = 18 Good defense;; Expert Fighter 1 Glorious = 15 Helps with cost;; still has Expert Fighter 4 Hurricane = 20 Escort is all you need protect the B-25's 2 Kent = 26 Escort Killer helps with swarms 5 Truculent = 60 20-15-10 Torpedo die at 0-1-2 range; best you can get;; considering axis u-boats 24-24-12 6 Michell = 54 Good against DD swarms;; Skip bomb against larger ships a plus 1 PBY = 07 Shadow;; extra bomb die always helps along with Alt pay. Sub Threat and TT
The carriers;; The Zepplins have nice MG's for objective claiming and good AA;
The Victorious is a UK plus at 18pts ;;Torpedo Defense; Good AA and 5 Armor;; to me thats why
saving a few pts on Glorious is a plus; this UK Team will stay in the game as long as the Zepplin's.
The surface ships on each side; Something in a build as this you are limited; they can secure an objective or help with swarms
keeping them around until you can claim something is a big priority.
The Subs;; These PB's aren't going to destroy anything big;; You need the Subs to do what all else fails or
if you face something the rest of your build can't hurt.
The KOD is still Primo but i think a UK build with some friendly help can give most builds a run for their money.
If the KOD had a weakness it was against the Big BB builds;;
IMO why 6 KOD subs were so good to have, don't know why you would spend more on the U-552 and lose range 1 Torpedo die??
Keeping it original;; I would correct the build by lessening the Kondor's to 6 and adding to the surface fleet.
Modified “Official Kondor”
Graf Zepplin X2 @18 for 36 = 36 Unprecedented CL like MG's Bf109 X4 @7 for 28 = 64 Escort; Protect those Kondors; Intercept anything unescorted Graf Spee X1 @21 = 85 Big boost in MG's Eugenio di Savoia X1 @13 = 98 Helps with DD swarms and a little make up for Kondor loss U510 X6 @11 for 66 = 164 You need the subs Kondor X @6 for 36 = 200 Pinpointer and 1 sector attack priceless;;
I Agree the best Allied answer to the the KOD belongs to the UK with a little hep from its friends.
1 Victorious = 18 Good defense;; Expert Fighter 1 Glorious = 15 Helps with cost;; still has Expert Fighter 4 Hurricane = 20 Escort is all you need protect the B-25's 2 Kent = 26 Escort Killer helps with swarms 5 Truculent = 60 20-15-10 Torpedo die at 0-1-2 range; best you can get;; considering axis u-boats 24-24-12 6 Michell = 54 Good against DD swarms;; Skip bomb against larger ships a plus 1 PBY = 07 Shadow;; extra bomb die always helps along with Alt pay. Sub Threat and TT
The carriers;; The Zepplins have nice MG's for objective claiming and good AA;
The Victorious is a UK plus at 18pts ;;Torpedo Defense; Good AA and 5 Armor;; to me thats why
saving a few pts on Glorious is a plus; this UK Team will stay in the game as long as the Zepplin's.
The surface ships on each side; Something in a build as this you are limited; they can secure an objective or help with swarms
keeping them around until you can claim something is a big priority.
The Subs;; These PB's aren't going to destroy anything big;; You need the Subs to do what all else fails or
if you face something the rest of your build can't hurt.
The KOD is still Primo but i think a UK build with some friendly help can give most builds a run for their money.
That was one of reasons i pushed to give the 6" ontario ER4
Keeping it Original you could exchange the Kents and PBY for the Repulse ER4 and Evade Torpedos
It matches pretty much what the KOD surface units offered
There are a lot more choices now to tweak the build as you can slip in BV 138 Sea Dragon if you think you will potentially have enough aircraft to hide it a bit with a numerical placement advantage. Then on the sub side the U-48 gives you armour 4 and some elusiveness in exchange for wolf pack and U-37 can play well with your cruisers. I saw an effective build here in a casual game where the house rule was you could only use a single entity of a unit apart from aircraft, so it was Graf Zep + Europa + a mix of subs.